Mikali Anagnostis and Gabi Cabenhead are behind a new sacred art project called ‘Marion St’, an attempt to create “worship music that fits with the theology and experience of the progressive church.”
Gabi and Mikali are also young, open-eyed about the injustices often attached to religious spaces, while simultaneously passionate about their faith and its expression in community.
We explored some big questions together, such as:
- Why do churches with slick services often have narrow theology…and churches with inclusive theology often have daggy services? Is the best of both possible?
- What do young people in Gen Z think about spirituality and organised religion? What do they actually want from church?
This was a lovely conversation with two excellent humans. Enjoy!
Listen to ‘Whole’ by Marion St here
The songs ‘Shaping a New World’ and ‘Garden’ are featured at the beginning and end of this episode.
Sign up to our mailing list:
https://spiritualmisfits.com.au/
Join our online Facebook community:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/spiritualmisfitspodcast
Support the pod:
https://spiritualmisfits.com.au/support-us/
Send us an email:
Spiritualmisfits@outlook.com
View all episodes at: https://spiritualmisfits.buzzsprout.com
Mikali Anagnostis and Gabi Cabenhead are behind a new sacred art project called ‘Marion St’, an attempt to create “worship music that fits with the theology and experience of the progressive church.”
Gabi and Mikali are also young, open-eyed about the injustices often attached to religious spaces, while simultaneously passionate about their faith and its expression in community.
We explored some big questions together, such as:
- Why do churches with slick services often have narrow theology…and churches with inclusive theology often have daggy services? Is the best of both possible?
- What do young people in Gen Z think about spirituality and organised religion? What do they actually want from church?
This was a lovely conversation with two excellent humans. Enjoy!
Listen to ‘Whole’ by Marion St here
The songs ‘Shaping a New World’ and ‘Garden’ are featured at the beginning and end of this episode.
Sign up to our mailing list:
https://spiritualmisfits.com.au/
Join our online Facebook community:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/spiritualmisfitspodcast
Support the pod:
https://spiritualmisfits.com.au/support-us/
Send us an email:
Spiritualmisfits@outlook.com
View all episodes at: https://spiritualmisfits.buzzsprout.com
Will (00:02.837)
Gabi and Mikali, welcome, a very warm welcome to both of you to the Spiritual Misfits podcast.
Gabi + Mikali (00:10.007)
Thank you. Thanks for having us.
Will (00:12.693)
So good to be hanging out with you this afternoon. We met a couple of months ago, a few months ago at Adamstown uniting church as part of a kind of conference type gathering called mission fest. And, um, we can chat a little bit more about, you know, that in a moment, but, um, been keen to have you on the pod since meeting and, uh, we're going to talk about a whole bunch of stuff about creativity and worship and music and young people. Um, but before we get into any of that, why don't you both introduce yourselves? However, you feel comfortable and give a little bit of your kind of backstory, who you are, how you got here. Maybe we'll start with Mikali.
Mikali (01:06.878)
Yeah, I grew up on Awabakal country, Lake Macquarie. It's part of my origin. I guess my faith journey a bit is like kind of grew up, I guess like liberal Catholic, you would say. My mum is religious, my dad's not. So I kind of grew up with a fairly open faith.
And then when I was in high school, got quite involved in the Pentecostal church, in a Pentecostal church. Um, I think that was when like, I started like writing music for church and kind of got involved in that. Yeah, did like the worship leader thing.
And yeah, I don't know if you know much about the culture in those spaces. But their can be like kind of ‘poster child instincts’ for young people who do that kind of thing. So yeah, I was like sucked in, well not sucked in, like I had a lot of agency and I loved it. But really in like the heart of that community. Yeah, throughout like my high school years.
Will (02:19.393)
Mm.
Mikali (02:26.058)
I feel like I should say I'm 24. Sorry, my story is like, significantly short. I'm always aware of that when I'm sharing it. It's like not quite as much content to cover. I don't know.
Will (02:34.741)
Well, we are genuinely different generations, right? Like you, you are both, are you both Gen Z?
Mikali (02:44.086)
Yeah, just. Cusp, cusp Gen Z. I think they, they year earlier than I was born, you know, the start of Gen Z. Mm.
Will (02:46.897)
Yeah, OK.
You'll be the wise sages of Gen Z in the future, like the elder Gen Z's.
Mikali (02:59.494)
Oh, the gen z's. The geriatric gen z's one day. Yeah. Like the geriatric millennials.
Will (03:05.681)
Yeah. Cause I'm like a, I don't know if I'm like a middle-aged millennial or where I see I'm, I'm 33, but I have friends that are ‘elder millennials’ and not that much older than me, but it's like a, it's a thing like, you know, everyone who is on the cusp. It's like, depending on who you're with, you're like, I just want to nudge myself up a little bit into the next generation or I am proud to be where I am. But we are technically different generations, which is going to help our conversation.
Gabi (03:13.146)
Mm.
Mikali (03:32.098)
Oh, it's such a thing. Yeah. I feel like I'm always nudging, always trying to nudge up. Yeah. With, with, with millennials or with Gen Zs. I don't feel like I'm a proper Gen Z because there's kind of an idea of who Gen Z is and they're all younger than me. Like mostly just because I don't have TikTok. Yeah, mostly. Like that's the defining feature of our generation. Yeah, yeah. No, I don't have TikTok. I'm not a proper Gen Z. Yeah.
Will (03:40.289)
Hehehehe
Will (04:01.341)
Well, you're on this episode at least partly to speak for every Gen Z out there. So, I mean, you better get TikTok if you want to stay on the pod.
Gabi + Mikali (04:08.77)
No pressure. Every single day. That's right. Right? Yes, yeah. Yeah, I should have done a bit of recon, a bit of research. Mostly it just gives me a headache, makes me feel really foggy headed. But then I do also have a bit of a complex about the fact that I don't have it. We’re older gen zs. We get headaches from TikTok. Yeah.
Will (04:28.577)
Right. I can completely relate. Don't worry. I don't want to go anywhere near that. So you're in the, you're in the Pentecostal church, Mikali, and you're like kind of loving it, leaning into that space. What happened then?
Mikali (04:41.886)
Yeah, loving it. Yeah, absolutely. I think that, I mean, there were always some things that didn't sit well, I guess having grown up with like a more open faith, but really watch, I think as I became more aware of my queerness, it started to fit less and less. And then eventually like when I was like about 18 and leaving high school, and having more conversations with people about that, it just became clear that it was not the right space for me to be in that I wasn't really welcome there and couldn't really be in the heart of that community as a queer person. Yeah, so at that point I kind of, well actually I went to another Pentecostal church, it was still Pentecostal but a little bit more open-minded and went to theological college for a year with Mitch Forbes actually, who will be known to listeners of this podcast.
Will (05:39.198)
Yes. You lucked out. You got a good one.
Mikali (05:45.614)
I lucked out, yeah, it was, as you can imagine, quite a wonderful year. It really opened my mind to different ways of thinking about faith and to the diversity of Christian thought and practice. Yeah, so then after that I moved to Sydney for uni and at that point, yeah, found a faith community that is queer affirming and justice focused. Yeah, and really have found a home in that space, which is where I am now.
Will (06:23.901)
Awesome. How about you, Gabi? Tell us a little bit of the backstory of Gabi.
Gabi (06:29.066)
Yeah, so, I feel like my story is a little bit boring because I'm Uniting Church born and bred. So I've only ever existed within the one denomination. I haven't like gone and found things for myself and then arrived at a Uniting Church because I wanted to or because it was progressive, but kind of have been raised within it. My dad's a retired minister in the Uniting Church. My mom's been really actively involved in social justice stuff in the Uniting Church. It kind of is deeply embedded in who I am.
You know, grew up as a minister's kid is always an interesting thing to do. There's lots of dynamics going on there about like how visible you are in a congregation, especially when there's maybe like two other families with kids. And so I did spend my early years in Sydney and then spent my high school years in Maitland on Wonnarua country and then moved back to Sydney when I was starting uni. So I kind of spent my teenage years being one of very few teenagers in my church. Being a minister's kid, but being really supported in like engaging with music and leading worship as well. Probably in a different way, but there was like a few friends and I would like once a month would do the music at church. And so it was very much like, oh, the young people playing music were so excited. So that was lovely. But there, you know, was like only a handful of us. And so then came to Sydney when I started uni. Not quite 18, I was so small, and kind of got involved with Christian Students Uniting, which is the uniting church kind of group on university campuses. at U-Syd and kind of got involved in those Bible studies and was asking people like, you know, what churches that you connected to that I might have a look at and, and Leichardt United Church was the top of the list and I didn't get to any of the others because I went to Leichardt United Church and was like, hmm, I think this is where I'll stay. So that's where we both go now.
Will (08:51.463)
Nice.
Obviously the experience you have is the only experience you have, so you can't quite compare, but, but thinking about, uh, Mikali kind of going through that experience of going to a Pentecostal church where there was a realization that who I am is not quite welcome here. Did you have that in a sense, or did you, do you feel like being in the Uniting church meant that you actually did not have to go through that experience?
Gabi (09:04.54)
I would say that not being in the United Church specifically, but in the congregations that I grew up in, specifically with my dad being the minister and my parents both already being affirming of queer people, means that I grew up in largely progressive queer affirming spaces in church. I wouldn't make a blanket statement about the whole United Church, but I kind of lucked out in a few ways there. And so I am really lucky to have not have like internalized a bunch of the shame that some queer people have in church. I also like didn't as a teenager know that I was queer, it's only something that I've been able to come to terms with in the last couple of years because I'm in a community, a church community that has so many queer people who are at different stages of that journey of realizing who they are. It's kind of because I've been in that space that I've had, that I've been able to properly reckon with my own queerness because I know there's a safe place to be in community with people.
Will (10:22.621)
Yeah. So like we made some generational jokes before, and to give slightly more context around when we met at this event in Adamstown, um, you were running a session, a talk together, um, called ‘what young people want’. And, um, I made a joke before about you representing all of Gen Z, um, which you were very open at that session about not representing all young people.
But it is a, like an area of conversation that hasn't really come up on the podcast yet. And I suppose, uh, as a millennial, as a Gen Y, I really feel like my generation are like in some ways, the epicenter of like deconstruction or whatever words you want to use for that. Although you can make arguments that, um, Gen X are like, you know, their whole identity is around that kind of like disestablishmentarianism, anti-authority. And then I also see now more and more baby boomers kind of getting on the train. Partly because their kids have been leaving church and asking questions. So it's all kind of interwoven, but I would be super interested and I am genuinely interested just in general around what it's like for younger generations, um, right now in the current kind of moment of cultural Christianity, um, in Australia.
Gabi + Mikali (11:31.05)
Mm.
Will (11:50.213)
And so I'm interested for, for both of you, and that's a big question, but as you look around your kind of peer group, is there a sense of deconstructing? Is that like a relevant kind of term or how do you think kind of people in your age group are generally thinking about or approaching organized religion, Christianity, what are some of the kinds of attitudes that you see happening there?
Mikali (12:16.718)
Yeah. I feel like, yeah, it's funny in a way that we have kind of come of age in a time when people are talking about deconstruction. But probably not just about faith. I feel like in terms of lots of things, this is the cultural moment. And in some ways, it's kind of just part of the Gen Z worldview deconstructing gender and race. So I feel like maybe that's a difference for... I mean it's not... I mean you could probably say the same thing about millennials really. But yeah just I think deconstructing faith I feel like for our generation is in the context of...of the whole thing, like being like, I think, I think at best Gen Z has like a very critical approach to the world. And at worst, just a very cynical approach to the world. And then yeah, church, church and religion is sort of part of that. Like that's my initial thought.
Gabi
I definitely think that deconstruction is still relevant because maybe we're starting that deconstruction earlier or maybe we're exposed to those deconstruction ideas at a younger age, but it's not like we've been born into a world where there are no systems left to deconstruct. Like that's still something we're actively involved in. We're not there yet, right? And for me as someone who's grown up in progressive spaces in the United Church, I think that I feel like I maybe have less deconstructing that I've been required to do than some of my peers have coming from more conservative spaces. But that doesn't mean that I have no deconstructing left to do. It's kind of like my parents did some deconstructing in their 20s and 30s and passed that on to me and now I like pick up the baton and continue the deconstruction process just from like a different starting point from people who are maybe in more conservative spaces have been where that's been their upbringing. Yeah.
Will (14:29.247)
Mm.
Yeah, interesting. It sort of makes me think about, I suppose, uh, for me, a part of my, um, generational kind of narrative is that I can very clearly remember a world pre-internet and mobile phones. And that changed for me in high school when we all suddenly got email addresses and we all suddenly got Nokia phones. And then, you know, obviously that progressed into the iPhone and everything.
Mikali (14:50.69)
Hmm.
Will (15:04.273)
And so in a way, I feel like there's a more, a clear line in the sand between like the information age, not being a thing, and then it being a thing. And that meaning that I had, I think I had a lot more attitudes that were, you know, there was no Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, where I'm watching other people kind of publicly critique concepts of race, gender, Christianity. So all of that started later. Do you feel like growing up, you've been exposed from an earlier age to those kind of diverse modes of thinking and critiquing?
Gabi (15:46.278)
I'd say yes because of who my mum is. She is a social worker and an activist deeply passionate about a lot of those intersections anyway. I can't remember a time when I wasn't a feminist.
Will (15:59.757)
Mm.
Gabi (15:59.866)
Um, and so like some of my earliest memories of her, like taking me to protests and stuff. So even though I didn't have access to the internet at that age, I had access to a parental figure who was like actively engaged with what is going on in our world now. And so I think for me, the internet is maybe like a source to start to explore those things on my own terms and like find different sources of information that maybe I didn't have access to before, but I don't think those. And in some ways, like kind of explore specifically, which is something that definitely I have more access to because of the internet. But it's not like those seeds weren't already planted in my life, I think. I think it's about a relationship between access to the internet and taking ownership of that learning for myself. I think.
Will (16:40.673)
Mm.
Mikali (16:48.694)
Yeah. I think, I think it wasn't so much social media to me, but I think I actually haven't been aware of this at all until right now. That like podcasts were massively formational. Like even with like, thinking about like my own queerness.
I'm trans-femme non-binary. I feel like we haven't, yeah, said how we identify yet, but for context. I can remember I was like listening to the Bible for Normal People episode. Can you say, you can say the name of another podcast, on your podcast, right? That's not like taboo?
Will (17:30.59)
Yeah, absolutely.
Mikali (17:41.878)
Yeah, I can't remember the name of the pastor now, but it was like a pastor who had done that journey with her church. And had been doing like different you know had been looking online at different perspectives but it was like hearing that story um and hearing that perspective um and her rationale for it was really when the penny dropped for me i think about affirming theology um yeah. So I guess that access to stories from so many different people is a massively formational thing.
Gabi
Yeah and in terms of like who the storytellers are, like I think I've grown up like hearing second hand about people's experiences of injustice and oppression and how they're responding to that but I think the internet gives us access to like hearing those stories from the mouths of the people who have those experiences.
Will (18:12.616)
Mm.
Gabi (18:34.366)
Yeah, and particularly like hearing about queer theology done by queer people, not just as allies, this is why we affirm queer people, but as trans people, let's read the Bible through a trans lens specifically, and that's really powerful to open up.
Will (18:53.405)
Yeah. See, that's something that I just think when I was a teenager, I don't know where I would have possibly accessed queer theology, for example. It existed. It's not to say it didn't exist, but I think that's probably part of the shift is that, you know, the, um, the digital native kind of literacy for younger generations and just know how to Google or TikTok, whatever it is that they want to learn about is such a new phenomenon and obviously one that will shift how people are formed to think about things like yeah, institutional Christianity. And I suppose one thing that I've kind of heard when people are talking about generational trends is that there probably is a strong sense and correct me if I'm wrong or tell me how this checks out with your experience, but that there is still a strong sense of spirituality for Gen Z, but much less found in identifying within an institution, which would have been where that spirituality lived in previous generations. I'm part of the church or I go to church. Whereas I think there's probably a lot more Gen Z's who identify maybe with Christianity or with Christian spirituality, but who don't see that as deeply embedded in a local community or, or the church as institution. What are, what are your thoughts on some of that? Am I sort of tapping into something there? Am I regurgitating stuff I've heard that checks out with your experience of your generation, or how would you see people's kind of understanding of spirituality and institution?
Gabi (20:48.71)
Yeah, I definitely think there's more of awareness around institutions and more of a like critical thinking about what we're told by institutions rather than just absorbing it as given. And I think also there's a there's a distinction between like I'm spiritual but not connected to a community. I'm spiritual and connected to a community, but I don't really know how I feel about the institutional church and then I'm connected to a community and to this kind of a bigger community. I think there's kind of different stages there and each of those things kind of has a spectrum, right?
Mikali
Yeah. I think there's something about like, I feel like people our age feel, just like kind of have a lower threshold or a lower tolerance for BS in a way. It's like, I think what other people will stay in a space and say like, I really don't, like, I think this might just be the context that we're in as well. Where a lot of people have left to come to, to the kind of church that we're in. But, but well, I think maybe other people or maybe just other people would stay in a space and be like, I don't really agree with this, but, but the community is holding me here. Um, I think, yeah, generally, people, people our age feel almost personally, that value clash. Um, and that could be like maybe even a depth of relationship thing as well, just that we haven't been in those spaces for as long. And so we don't have decades long, like unless it's the church that you grow up in, not having those decades long relationships, um, that would make you loyal to a community or to a church. Um, yeah, I definitely do think so that like that young people find spirituality in different ways. I have no fears about the future of kind of, like I really do believe people find spirituality where they, people who have a yearning for spirituality will find it. I think it's usually like I notice it with creative people. Yeah, yeah. There's so much language around spirituality, whether or not you're connected to a religion per se. Yeah.
Will (23:16.204)
Mm.
Gabi (23:17.49)
Yeah, I think the intersection of like queer communities and like those communities often being really creative, like queer spaces can be some of the most spiritual spaces they've been in. And the language is like so expansive and entirely removed from like religious language. But yeah, people find a way. I think through, yeah, usually through art has been my experience.
Will (23:28.324)
Mm.
Well, we were just talking before we started recording about how Gabi recently won the bread and butter poetry slam, which is in Newtown, right?
Gabi (23:54.03)
It has been based in Newtown but that venue is just closed so it's shifting location.
Will (23:59.365)
Okay. Yeah. And slam poetry for me, as someone who grew up in church and church has always been a part of my life. Slam poetry is the, the closest community experience that I have ever participated in that, that is doing a lot of the same things that I think a church service is aiming to do.
Gabi (24:22.164)
Yeah.
Will (24:26.149)
There are elements of transcendence, meaning making, connection, community, encouragement, in a sense, there's a kind of mission because there's this, you know, go out, help people to live more fully into their creative expression, come back next time. So that's an interesting, I think that is one of those spaces where people's spiritual, um, appetite is being met in, in a way that is very similar, but not explicitly, kind of religious.
Gabi (24:57.358)
Yeah, yeah, I resonate with that. I hadn't thought about it exactly in that way, but there is something spiritual about like sitting and listening deeply to someone's story that they're sharing in poetry form.
And also, as a poet, I write a lot about the intersections between like embodiment, queerness, and the sacred. And so I've been performing a bunch of those poems at this slam and my kind of first instinct is, okay, probably the queer parts of me are going to be like more acceptable in this space. So when I like enter into a new poetry space for the first time, I'll perform maybe a queer poem, not necessarily one that mentions spirituality and then the slam that I won I was like okay I'm gonna take a risk and actually perform a poem that is specifically about being a non-binary person of faith and that's what won me a slam I was like why was I why was I afraid like I kind of had assumed that people only view church or spirituality as a negative thing but people would come up to me like whether or not they're connected to a church community now, it was kind of healing to hear about it, like explored in a different way, or like there were queer people of faith coming up to me and saying, I felt seen in a way that like, like we don't often provide that kind of platform for queer people of faith to see each other and see themselves in other people's art. So that was really powerful to know that like, whether or not you're attached to a church institution, there can be something powerful about engaging with these spiritual concepts together in that community space.
Will (26:42.061)
Hmm. Yeah, that's beautiful. I mean, I think spiritual community at its best helps people to be seen. And part of the, like the injustice of spiritual community gone wrong is when it tries to erase, um, groups of people. And so poetry slam is really built on this. I think a very deep way of saying anybody can come up here and be witnessed as they are, and there are no rules around who's allowed or who's not allowed to do that.
Gabi (27:08.482)
Mm.
Will (27:12.885)
So I'm stoked to hear you've been having that experience and that it's been resonating powerfully with other people. So one of the things I wanted to talk to you both about that, that again, kind of fascinates me and it's kind of like alluded to in that again, what young people want as a session title. So I talked to my friends who a lot of us now have more progressive theology. Me and Mitch Forbes, we talk about this all the time and we're like, it seems like, um, there's this one idea that what young people want is a really good experience with lights and sound and production value and kind of what Mikali you got caught up in, probably as a young person in a Pentecostal space. Those spaces or churches that are doing that stuff well are almost always, um, simultaneously very rigid in their beliefs and doctrines and kind of who's in and who's out. Then we have the stereotypical uniting church that's much more spacious in terms of what people can believe. And yet, like you sort of mentioned, Gabi, you're like one of the only young people in that space, as far as the creative side, the production side, the whatever, that stuff feels a little bit like, sorry, you can't have both. Now this to me, I just don't understand why there hasn't been a greater emergence of theologically kind of open minded progressive spaces that are really creative, like we talk about slam poetry and things like that. Um, yeah, I mean, this is, this is kind of the general area of conversation. I want to enter in together, not saying that there's like quick answers, but have you observed this kind of like choice between good production value and rigid theology or open theology and kind of very average production value? And what do people really care about like in terms of what is actually going to draw young people into a community more if it's a battle for those two things or does it have to be a battle between those two things?
Mikali (29:24.011)
Yeah, I definitely have noticed that and remember it was something that, yeah, it was like, jarring is probably too strong a word, but yeah, when I first started coming to the church just like the spinal block vibes during worship. Like I am feeling something in my body. I want to move and everyone is like so.
Gabi
We don't move in the United Church.
Mikali
Yeah, yeah. But what actually, what struck me more strongly than that was that everyone was invited to be part of worship. And I think what was prioritized over having a sound that was really sleek and well polished, was the inclusion of people who just don't have the capacity to create that standard. Yeah, but it created a worship experience that for me feels more just and just like more authentic and honest and more invitational. Yeah, so I think that's part of it is just like prioritizing inclusion over, um, like I know in Pentecostal churches, excellence is the word that is used.
Will (30:47.023)
That's the word. That's the word.
Gabi
I don't think I've ever heard excellence used in a church context.
Will (31:00.285)
You can have, you can have excellence with exploitation or you can have exploitation free average-ness.
Mikali (31:10.946)
I think part of it as well is that like when you have, well this is probably specifically in the context of music which probably have like pretty limited mediums usually when we think about creativity in church. When, when your like theology is more nuanced and more ambiguous, it is, it's harder to create like, it's harder to create a song line that you're going to feel really strongly about because it's hard to feel strongly about something when you have like, like ambiguous feelings, I don't think blend themselves well, with kind of really empowering strong worship, emotionally.
Will (31:59.009)
That's really interesting. Do you listen to Gang of Youths, either of you?
Mikali (31:59.282)
Yeah, yeah. I love Gang of Youths.
Gabi
No, I listen to classical music, sorry.
Will (32:07.365)
Yeah, okay. I only bring that up because gang of youths have resonated so hard with people kind of coming out of, um, rigid faith structures, partly because that's gang of youths, like that's their background. But it's interesting because that is just an, an example of nuance, ambiguity in very heartfelt, very honest music that is resonating deeply with large groups of people.
Mikali (32:45.05)
Mm. Yeah, that's so true. Maybe the difficulty is within the like the constraint of a song that everyone can sing together. Although, like people, you go to a gang of youths gig and they have a stadium full of people singing along. So maybe that's a cop out to say that.
Will (33:07.637)
Yeah, but I think it's also like, it's the expectations of a space. Cause, cause no one's expecting either gang of youth style music or lyrics in a church. But I listen to those songs and I'm like, it taps deeply into spiritual intuitions and an experience of, yeah, um, worship, but it's a mismatch from what often we have expected from our kind of sacred spaces in inverted commas.
Gabi (33:43.296)
Mmm. Yeah, last weekend I was in a songwriting workshop with The Brilliance, who are currently touring Australia. And we ended up in this conversation about like, how do you write worship music in a space where people are deconstructing and different people find different language triggering? And how do you like hold that space for everyone? Do we just not have music for a while? Do we like, do we just have instrumental music? Like how do we hold that space? And like talking about are there ways that you can open up what has been harmful language to think about in a new or more expansive way like. Yeah, like just different ways that we can use music in worship to like acknowledge that there has been harm done, but then like re-imagine something more hopeful. Yeah, it was really fascinating conversation. It didn't come to any particular conclusions because I don't think there is a one size fits all conclusion. It's very much tied to what community you're part of. But yeah, it was really fascinating to talk about.
Mikali (34:58.288)
I think that's part of the difficulty as well is like just people's associations with particular music. Like, There is like some music from Hillsong that is like incredibly thoughtful and like beautifully written but we could never we couldn't play that at a service because people would walk out. It's so tied to harmful experiences. Yeah yeah so I think that's part of the difficulty as well.
Gabi
Yeah I also do want to name that I think money is part of this.
Will (35:07.337)
Mm.
Gabi (35:27.254)
um because my experience of like some united church spaces is that like if the priority is on, we need to like have enough money to employ our minister and our congregation is dwindling and like we don't have extra resources. So of course, we're not going to pay musicians like whereas maybe some of those congregations where it's all about production value, that's what they're putting their money towards. So there's kind of different priorities and how money is used as well. That being said, I know we're going to talk about Marion Street soon. We were able to get some funding through the Uniting Church to record those EPs. So it's kind of about like putting your money where your mouth is as well.
Will (36:16.89)
Yeah. I think that's a great point. It's interesting. I think there's another thing going on there in some of those. Like again, I'm, I'm not a Pentecostal. I'm more like comfortable critiquing my kind of Baptist background. Cause that’s, where I grew up. So I can, I can kind of more accurately, um, you know, critique it. Um, but there is a common, uh, you know, I guess critique of Pentecostal spaces that is they're very good at building volunteer driven kind of production that, that is not always honoring the countless amount of hours that people are putting in to build the thing where there's definitely a lot of money involved, but the question of whether or not it's going to the, the musician on a Sunday morning in a local context is, is probably a question, but I think that's all wrapped up together hey? Like there is an investment in the look and the sound, but then there's also building a strong culture of volunteers, which is often about some of those simpler messages that maybe you were talking about, Mikali where it's like, we can get people to rally around our group being the chosen ones. Um, yeah.
Mikali (37:39.291)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, well there's the whole cultural, yeah, creating that really strong, to get people to give so much time to their church. Yeah.
Will (37:55.145)
Which is something that it seems like a lot of this feels so tricky to me in terms of thinking about the future of the church, because I do believe that for young people and for myself as a young person, like it's such a powerful thing to feel that deep sense of purpose and belonging and to feel like you are part of a special group that are really making a difference in the world. And I still see that longing in groups of young people that I speak to or spend time with, often it's directed towards issues of climate or, um, you know, other kinds of advocacy pieces, but I do think the solution is not to stop calling young people into a larger meaning based story. Um, it's just to make it a more expansive and inclusive one perhaps, but do you still feel like, do you feel particularly for you, Mikali, like having been in that space, that was a bit more of that kind of energy and now being in a space that's really authentic and inclusive and just, which I hear resonates with deep values of yours. Do you ever, do you ever wish you could have some sort of like mashup of the two? Like, do you miss elements of those previous spaces?
Mikali (39:10.538)
Yeah, I definitely used to. Not so much anymore, actually, but definitely for a few years I really did. And that sense of radicalism and us having something that is very special and unique, and a sense of purpose that goes with that. Because I mean, I think that we do have... There is a culture of...Like being very, I think around activism, people do give a lot of time to things that are happening. Like associated with church, but it's usually something that you could also get outside of church. Like we're not the only ones who are doing it. And yeah, so you don't have that same sense of. of what you have being something really special. So yeah, I totally, I totally did miss it. I don't so much anymore. Maybe I've just been like institutionalized.
Will (40:07.645)
I'm not saying that you have to, I'm just, I'm curious about like, is there, is there an appetite for a future where those things really do come together in terms of the highly creative, um, experiential aspect of spiritual community with the really inclusive, expansive theology? I like, I think that's a genuinely open question.
Mikali (40:36.21)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Will (40:37.193)
Because it feels like a gap that hasn't been filled yet. And maybe, maybe there will just be less. Like I think it's so true that thing about like the lower tolerance for bullshit that Gen Z has, I think that's definitely a guiding value for whatever the future of church looks like for that generation, like no BS, but will, will there be an emergence of more kind of, um, yeah, I mean, it's. There's lots of ways to be creative as well. So I don't want to, I don't want to just say that creative has to feel like a nightclub or like a, like a stadium concert, which is probably a good, a good way to turn into some of the work that you have been doing, um, Marion street. You know, you've been creating work that I think is really, it's stirring. It's honest. It's authentic. Um, you know, well-produced music, um, that maybe is its own little local answer to some of these questions. Want to share a little bit about how that started and some of the work you've been doing in that space?
Gabi (41:39.886)
I just want to take an opportunity to brag about this human. Because Marion Street is the two of us plus friends, but it kind of started with you. Because I think we're kind of finding that balance at Leichardt Uniting, where it's a really creative space, but also doesn't expect so many hours of people or that church is their whole life.
There are a few like trained musicians, I’m not the only alumnus of Sydney Conservatorium in our congregation, which is kind of crazy. And so like we've got good musos with possibly limited time. And so it's always a balance of those things. But Mikali just started writing these beautiful songs that we've been singing in community for like three years now that have become like part of the fabric of how we do congregational worship like someone Like remarked the other day about how it's not really a Leichardt Uniting Church service anymore if we don't have a Gabi or Mikali song, at least one of them in the course of worship. And so like honestly, I started writing my worship music because you'd started doing it and I was like, oh, that's so cool. I wanna do that. And yeah, you have this really beautiful way of kind of capturing the hope and the doubt at the same time. The first EP of Marion Street that's now out, if you wanna go and listen to it, is that kind of is all of Mikali's songs. And you've got this really beautiful way of like imagining a future through the lens of like, I don't wanna say brokenness cause that's such a loaded word, but like kind of acknowledging how hard the world can be, but also having hope that there is a future to it. Yes, yeah, yeah.
Will (43:41.205)
Hmm. Honest.
Gabi (43:45.846)
Yeah, that's my spiel. You're cool.
Mikali
Thanks for that. Thank you. Yeah, I think those songs felt like the reason why I didn't want to just release them like as a solo project was that they really did feel like they had emerged from that community. From the culture of that community and just like the nourishing creative space of that community that will let you find words for the divine.
Will (43:49.773)
I love it.
Mikali (44:14.794)
and give you so much space to do that. And then being like a part of a community of creators who played them and workshopped them. And I think it was also like an idea that we could have other people who are writing from a different perspective, who are not writing from always having been in the center of the church. Especially to have other queer writers to bring that perspective to creating resources for worship. So the whole idea or the reason the project is called Marion Street is because that's the street behind our church. It's just kind of just a nod to it. Trying to be voices from not people who are usually at the front steps, who you usually see when you see church, but the people who are there in the margins and writing from that experience of church that a lot of people resonate with and yeah I think a lot of people are looking for hearing that even if they're not from it like even people who because of their identity are not marginalized in church just want a different sounds and a different experience and different words that I think people who have been alienated from that experience can bring because they've had to find new words. Yeah.
Will (45:46.689)
That's so beautiful. I love the street behind. Very much fits with the idea of, you know, the, the people on the fringes of faith who are kind of really close in one sense, but also to the side of where has traditionally been thought of as the central, um, location for it. Um, but I often find that those sort of edge spaces are where there's so much beautiful life giving perspective to just waiting to be heard for people that take the time, sit there, walk there. We're going to play some of that, some of that music during the episode and people should definitely go and check out the EP. And there's another one on the way. Am I correct?
Mikali (46:36.975)
Yep. There is another one. And we're starting recording the third EP this weekend.
Will (46:49.525)
Oh, wow. So good. Do you want to talk a little bit more about how, um, yeah, how the, the theological and the creative interweave in the process for you? Cause I think it's interesting that, you know, we talked earlier about queer theologians and I think that's, that's been a gift that has been a growing awareness that there are queer theologies, but that still kind of sits in the kind of academic headspace. What does it mean for you to bring your full theological kind of intellectual self into the creative space and the space of activating a different part of people's kind of being and engagement.
Gabi (47:29.46)
Yeah. Um, for me, um, there's a very close relationship between my poetry and my songwriting. Um, actually the first worship song I wrote is just like a setting of a poem that I wrote. And then kind of since then I've been exploring like, what does it mean to write a song that isn't already a poem? Um, but they're very similar in content in that I write a lot about how bodies are sacred. Kind of if you were to like, sum up what is Gabi's worship music about? You are made in the image of God. And so I think while I'm not necessarily using words like queer within the content of the song, that it very much comes from I'm a queer person who is journeying with my body and I write about that. And when I share those poems or those just fragments of words with friends, it resonates with them. And so it's like, what if we sang them together at church? And then, like, hearing the kids in the congregation know my songs and sing loudly about how their body is holy. I'm just like, that's healing part of my inner child. And yeah, there's something inherently queer about being in a queer affirming congregation where we're singing about the holiness of bodies together in our bodies in a room. Yeah.
Will (49:01.387)
Mm. Love that.
Mikali (49:05.022)
Yeah, I mean, I feel like all theology is art and all liturgy is art. Like, it's all part of that same project, like we were talking about before, of trying to find words for the ineffable and trying to point to something that we won't ever be able to capture in words. Yeah, I think, actually, we haven't really spoken about liturgy explicitly yet but I feel like liturgy is such a powerful form in itself. And in a way I wonder, so this is kind of returning to that previous question, but if in like more liturgical congregations that are a bit more cerebral that has been kind of the creative medium that gets focused on because there is more...just because of the structure of it. There's more space for nuance. Just being able to write in prose, not in verse, I think, I have more possibilities. But I forgot what the question was that I was speaking to.
Will (50:22.633)
I think that was a, that was a great thought. Um, I think the liturgy is its own creative artistic work, like you're saying, but, um, to, to drop it down into, into those heart layers or into those embodied layers, like, like music can, um, you know, it all works together, but I love it. I love what you're both doing. Um, what you're bringing in that space. Yeah. When you think forward, like 10 years, what do you hope is the kind of environment that a local church invites a young person, maybe a queer young person into what does that space look like or sound like, or feel like, uh, in your best imaginings?
Gabi (51:17.038)
That's a really beautiful question. I thought you were about to ask me where I see myself in 10 years, and that's my least favorite question, but I like this question. Um, yeah, I need to sit with it for a sec. Do you want to go? I think something that's really participatory, that image of a poetry slam as being like church really struck me. Um, I think a space where people are just invited to participate fully, no matter who they are and where there is um, expansiveness in the, in what they can bring and the type of mediums that they can contribute and the kind of language that they can use, the way that they can use their body in that space.
Mikali
Yeah, just that everyone is invited to bring who they are and what they are into the center of church. And then there is not a mold that you have to fit. Um. to be able to be at the center with everything else that's outside of that mould sitting around the outside. I think when those perspectives are brought to the center it changes the culture of the whole of a whole church like particularly when if the like the people who are bringing that I think like particularly when they like I'm thinking particularly actually about a community that I used to be part of um with people with intellectual disability. It was a faith-based space where really the focus was on centering people with intellectual disability. And just the way that, because those people did not care about performing the norms and didn't have the capacity to perform the norms or the awareness that the norms were there, just the freedom in that space that it's kind of like no one had to perform. Like everyone was free to bring, bring themselves as they were to bring, like you can imagine the kind of creative input in that space was very expansive in the kind of medium and form that you could bring. Um, yeah. So I think centering those people created such a freedom in that space. That, that is my hope for the future of faith spaces.
Gabi
Yeah, I can see glimpses of that now in our church through like the fact that there are two queer songwriters who get sung every other Sunday. The fact that a bunch of the kids feel brave enough to grab a microphone that's not plugged in but we don't tell them that and get up the front with the band and sing along and dance and it's like wow those kids are already so much more free than I was at that age.
Will (53:57.834)
Mmm.
Gabi (54:10.557)
10 years feels like a long time when I'm 25. But, yeah, just kind of for me, I think it's about like, what music are you singing? What language are you using, particularly for God? Like, like if a queer person, if a queer young person walks into a church in 10 years time, and he has a liturgy that's been written through a queer understanding of who God is, then that is going to feel so much more home than if we are still talking about only God Father.
Will (54:51.469)
The Godfather, not to be confused with the classic trilogy.
Gabi (55:03.998)
God the Father is not a wrong image necessarily, but people have attached so much baggage to it. If it's just one image among a rotating roster, where we kind of see the expansiveness of God represented in so many different kinds of bodies and outside of bodies and like just in nature all around us, like that's such an expansive way to think about who God is and therefore like de-centers the kind of default images that a lot of us are unpacking now. And just thinking about like, what do you teach in a Sunday school so that people don't have less baggage to unpack later? Like that's a, we're about to start a Sunday school at Leichardt next year because we've got so many kids now. And I'm like, can I please be a Sunday school teacher? Cause I'm really interested by that concept of like how do you give kids really solid foundations that hopefully don't come with as much baggage.
Will (56:06.117)
Yeah, so it's a good question to ask for sure. Well, thank you both for the insights into what all young people want and how we make church cool again. Not to, you know, get all Trump on it, but, you know, some people seem to seem to want to make church great again, but we'll take a different path. Sorry, just rambling here.
Mikali (56:35.958)
Make church daggy again.
Will (56:36.141)
Love it. Yeah.
Uh, what I hear is that young people want something real and something that they don't have to discover that though it was attractive on the outside, it's, um, actually not welcoming of who they are on the inside. Do you know? I think acceptance seems like a big thing, authenticity. Um, and still, I think a sense of, of purpose. Yeah. So I'm going to give you guys the last word in a moment. Um, and then we're going to hear, hear one of your songs. Um, but what would be your final word for, for people listening as they think about, um, different generations and, um, Christian spaces and creativity.
Gabi (57:38.722)
I'm still holding on to this image of Poetry Slam as church and the way that like anyone can be a storyteller and the rest of us witness them in that. I am a big believer in we are all creative beings because we're created in the image of our creator. And so I'm kind of hoping that people will be kind of reckoning with, like there aren't, like taking away the barriers for certain people to be the storyteller, to be the songwriter, to be the person up the front, to be the person in the center. I'm really excited about church that bears witness to the gifts of so many different people, be they creative or otherwise, knowing that all people are creative.
Mikali
I don't think I want to add anything to that and reduce the power of that. Yeah, that's beautiful. Thanks for having us on. It's been a wonderful conversation.
Will (58:48.921)
Yeah, such a pleasure. Thank you both heaps.