Sarah McCammon on 'The Exvangelicals'

Sarah McCammon is an award-winning National Political Respodent for NPR and the author of the upcoming book: 'The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living and Leaving the White Evangelical Church'.

‘The Exvangelicals’ is part-memoir and part-journalism, providing a guided tour through the significant religious and political social shifts happening in our current historical moment, interwoven with Sarah’s own story growing up evangelical.

As I said to Sarah multiple times throughout our conversation, I  deeply appreciated this book. But don't just take my word for it! It’s endorsed by people like Brian McLaren, Nadia Bolz Weber, Jemar Tisby and Kristen Kobes Du Mez.

I don’t want to overstate the influence of American evangelicalism here in Australia….but I also don’t want to understate it.  What America exports in faith, politics and culture show up in so many ways we would do well to critically ponder.

Listen to this chat and then go and pre-order Sarah's book from the link below!

Pre-order the book here: https://static.macmillan.com/static/smp/the-exvangelicals/

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Transcript

Will Small: Sarah McCammon. It is a real delight for me to be able to spend some time with you after I've just thoroughly enjoyed reading your upcoming book, the Exvangelicals. So thank you so much for joining me for a conversation on the spiritual misfits podcast.

Sarah McCammon: Well, thanks for having me. And I'm so glad you enjoyed it. It means a lot to hear that.

Will Small: Yeah, it was, it was excellent. So I want to just do a bit of setting up this conversation in terms of, um, acknowledging the differences between the evangelical experience in the U S and where I am. Uh, in Australia, um, but also acknowledging like the significant kind of bleed and, and crossover between the two.

So, I was reading your book and there were so many things that were like, kind of like echoes of my childhood. Um, for example, you spoke about, um, the Focus on the Family magazine, Brio, uh, which is kind of this magazine for teen girls in the evangelical [00:01:00] world. And the, the male counterpart to that was a magazine called Breakaway.

And both of those magazines were a presence in my house. I have five siblings and my parents subscribed to Brio and Breakaway for us and Focus on the Family was definitely a presence. And so there are lots of things that you spoke about that felt like they were direct parallels with the childhood that I had, but also acknowledge that I'm potentially an outlier.

And in the Australian context, I think there is kind of that shadow of US evangelicalism. Um, but often, um, it's more in pockets than maybe as widespread as it is in the US. So the differences are real, but also I see that in some ways reading your book and chatting to you is kind of like getting a picture of the roots or the epicenter of this thing that has kind of rippled out in many places across the globe, um, and may also have kind of some cautionary tale, um, aspects to places like Australia that are continuing to find our identity as we wrestle with these kind of [00:02:00] shifting cultural phenomena.

And so in this book, you do kind of look at this large cultural shift that is happening, but you also ground it very much in your personal story. And it is this kind of beautiful blend of like memoir, Um, and I'm going to be talking a little bit about how I got into journalism and how I got into journalism and how I ended up with like a very well researched, you know, journalistic kind of, um, study.

So I was curious to begin with, how did you find the process of working at those two different layers? And, and as someone who's had a long career in journalism. Did you find it unique working with material that's so deeply personal for you?

Sarah McCammon: for sure. Um, and I would love to talk with you more about the sort of Australian evangelical experience. Cause I'm, I'm really fascinated by the ripple effects that American evangelicalism has around the world and the influence that it has. Obviously, uh, we export a lot of culture and I guess it includes religious culture and that's fascinating, um, in its own right.

But, uh, for me, you know, as a journalist, usually I'm [00:03:00] not. Telling my story. I'm telling other people's stories, and that's really how I'm most comfortable. I love to do that. Uh, I get a lot of energy from talking to people and sort of figuring out, figuring out how they think and, um, hearing about their experiences, but also as a journalist, you know, when you see something happening, when you notice like a trend or a change or a shift, it's, um, That's a story, that's news, and I felt like over the last several years, uh, not exclusively because of the Trump movement, but I think sort of in some ways catalyzed by that political moment that was forcing so many conversations about what it means to be evangelical and sort of how evangelicals amassed such political influence and how evangelicalism became, you know, not just a religious group.

But a political project, all of those questions have been swirling around, I think, in a heightened way over the last several years. And it was, I was noticing in public spaces, in mostly social media and [00:04:00] podcasts, uh, a lot of conversations around what it was like to be part of that world and the sort of existential questions this was raising for a lot of people.

Now, a lot of people Encounter those questions and those moments of cognitive dissonance, uh, particularly if they've grown up in a very strict religious background like evangelicalism, they encounter them for all sorts of reasons. And those are, that's kind of the organizing principle of my book is, it's sort of thematic and looks at what these points of cognitive dissonance are for a lot of people.

Um, but politics is one of them. And I think, you know, there, every day there was a story about white evangelicals. pretty much in the news starting around 2015, 16. And, uh, I wrote some of them, um, almost kind of accidentally found myself covering this thing that I had been a part of when I was much younger.

And, and I think that catalyzed a lot of these conversations. So I was seeing that happening as a journalist and curious about it, obviously had a personal insight and fascination with [00:05:00] it and started thinking, you know, really starting around 2017 about whether there was something I wanted to say about it, wondering where it was going to go.

And it just felt like over the last few years, there's been this critical mass of, you know, more and more books and podcasts and, and hashtags like exvangelical and deconstruction and things like that, that speak to these experiences. And I felt like this was a moment to talk about that. So, um, I really kind of saw the book, I see the book as almost like providing a tour through the evangelical world from somebody who knows and it was really, um, satisfying, I have to say, to sort of tell my story in conversation with lots of other people's stories because while we each have our own unique experiences, there are common themes about sort of how this feels to emerge from this world and, and to be sort of in that place of post evangelical, ex evangelical, deconstructing, whatever word you want to use at this moment in history.

And so, um, that's what I kind of tried to [00:06:00] describe. In this book.

Will Small: Yeah. And you do, you do a seriously brilliant job of it. I mean, I've read a lot of books in this space and this to me is, is right up there with like a Jesus and John Wayne, or do I stay Christian? You know, these kind of books in recent years that have really captured that moment. Well, I absolutely think yours is like top, top tier and I recommend it so well to people.

And one of the things that I really loved about it, which you're kind of just getting at. Is that there are books that speak to purity culture specifically, or there are books that talk about, you know, shifting theology around hell or something specifically, or there are books that talk about patriarchy or, but your book really wove together all of these interconnected elements, um, and use the kind of phrase in the book, it's like a parallel universe.

And I think probably more comprehensively than any book that's speaking to those single topics, and they're important. But you really kind of created the world that it's, it's [00:07:00] so immersive and it's all of those things kind of playing together. Um, and obviously in some senses you need a whole book to do that comprehensively.

It's hard on a podcast interview, but I wonder if you did want to kind of just riff a little bit on how it's the adding up of those different interconnected elements that does create the kind of evangelical bubble or experience that we're talking about here.

Sarah McCammon: Yeah, and I, you know, I owe our debt to a lot of the, the books that have been written so far, um, whether they are, you know, books like Jesus and John Wayne that really, I think, articulate a lot of this, um, or sort of set that, set the foundation for what I wanted to sort of build on and, and probe into in a different way.

Um, but the, The media, not just media, but this sort of ecosystem, this parallel universe, and I'm not the first person to use that term, but I think it's apt, it really grew up around, around us as evangelical kids, especially in the United States, you know, there was, um, An [00:08:00] entire Christian broadcasting industry that, that grew up, you know, people like Pat Robertson and then James Dobson on the radio offered Christian teaching, Christian entertainment, Christian news, Christian information, and it all kind of blended together, uh, to form sort of the, the backdrop to my childhood and many other childhoods.

And so, uh, like, like you mentioned earlier, you know, you, if you walked through my house as a child, you know, you would see bookshelves filled with. Christian children's books, and not exclusively, but a lot of them were. And you would see magazines that talked about Christian parenting, but also talked about evangelical politics.

And, you know, even in the bathroom, the magazines in the magazine rack were, you know, from like Campus Crusade for Christ, if you know that group. Um, and we were, Every family is a little different. We were allowed to watch some sort of secular movies and listen to some secular music But it was discouraged some people it was none at all But it was this very, you know protective bubble where most of the influences that I [00:09:00] had not to mention my Christian school which You know, was, um, the curriculum all came from, from conservative Christian publisher publishing houses that was all carefully filtered and curated.

And, you know, from like the perspective of most of the evangelical parents, it was about protecting us and providing us with a Christian worldview was a term I heard a lot. Um. The thing is that when, when it's so carefully constructed it, I don't think it was intentional necessarily on the part of a lot of our parents.

They thought this was what was best for us. This is a way to guide us to the truth. But you know, you, you grow up and you get just a little bit outside of that bubble and you realize that the world's a big place. And most people, you know, a lot of people are not, are not like us. And a lot of people have ideas that are different than what we were told.

And so for me, and I think for a lot of other people that creates, um, questions and cracks in that foundation. And particularly if you're somebody that doesn't fit into a very narrow frame of what, um, you know, you're told [00:10:00]you're supposed to be, uh, you know, straight monogamous pure until marriage, uh, you know, ideally male, you know, those are, there's sort of these different levels of hierarchy that, that if you don't fit into that, it can be.

I think for a lot of people who are outside of those lines, um, the questions may become a little bit sooner, but I, I wanted to talk to, um, a variety of people who had come to terms with their background in a variety of different ways and for different reasons. And so, you know, I did dozens of interviews, some, some with people I knew personally, some with writers and some with people I just met online, um, having conversations around this.

Will Small: In a sense, that kind of is a parallel with what this podcast is all about. Spiritual misfits is a term that does refer to that moment of cognitive dissonance. When you kind of feel like I've got one foot in and one foot out and I'm on the edge and I don't quite know how to make sense anymore [00:11:00] of these spaces that have been really formational.

Um, but also the fact that at this point in time, I feel really out of step or out of alignment with where they appear to be heading. Um, so I also was kind of reading the book going like, this is such a good fit for the kind of overall project of the Spiritual Misfits podcast.

Sarah McCammon: like that term by

Will Small: and in one sense, right?

Sarah McCammon: it feels like, that's, it feels very, very apt for what it kind of feels like to be in this, in that in between space, maybe, or maybe fully out, but, but still, you know, you're shaped by this world that, that is, it's different from, you know, a typical, if you didn't grow up evangelical, it's, it's, or if you did grow up evangelical, it is really a subculture with its own kind of.

Language and, um, a and cultural, uh, touchpoints.

Will Small: Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, you know, as you paint your own story in the book, you were kind of, uh, like a grade A, um, example in that world, right? Like [00:12:00] the gold standard evangelical young person at certain points. And then you ended up entering the world of journalism, where there is this kind of sense of actually getting beneath the story.

And you kind of talk about, you know, journalism means you can't rig the game. In the same way that often, again, that evangelical kind of worldview can be quite anti, anti intellectual and it can be quite, um, you know, kind of has these self fulfilling circles that means we don't look from different angles.

So, do you want to talk a bit about how maybe some of those cracks began to form for you and how, um, maybe you began to experience some of that cognitive dissonance or spiritual misfittery from, you know, what you grew up with to entering into, uh, I guess your vocation as a journalist?

Sarah McCammon: Yeah, and I first of all want to say, I I mean, I, I'm a little flattered that you, you described me as sort of a, you know, an ideal evangelical child. I wouldn't have done that. I mean, I, I was, uh, you know, I was a kid that didn't get into trouble and that followed the rules and all of that. But, uh, you know, my mom used to quote that.[00:13:00]

I don't remember who, who first said it, but that idea, you know, that on the inside, you're sitting down or on the inside, you're standing up on the outside, you're sitting down or whatever it is. And I, and I think, I don't know if you've heard that, but this idea that there's like a disconnect between your like outwardly.

conforming good behavior and the way you feel on the inside. And that's probably true. Um, I, you know, for a lot of reasons, I think from a young age, on the one hand, I really wanted to, to do what was right and do what I was told and be part of the community and be saved, right? Um, but on the other hand, there were, there were always things that didn't feel quite right.

And I think, uh, and I'll come back to those in a second, but I think in many ways, I, I went into journalism because of that dissonance. It wasn't like the journ, becoming a journalist produced it. Um, it, it really, for me was. A place where it was okay and encouraged to ask questions without, you know, predetermined answers.

And so, I think I was drawn to this idea of just being [00:14:00] allowed and Again, encouraged to explore to try to understand things because I felt like there were a lot of things I didn't understand. And it seemed like a safe place to do that. Um, I want to caveat journalists don't always get it right. And certainly, you know, we could have a whole, there are many debates about objectivity and, and how well journalism is or isn't doing in this current moment.

And that's, But I'm talking, you know, that's not what I want to go into here, but, but what I'm talking about is kind of the way I perceived it and the ideals of the journalism field really, really were attractive to me, um, as somebody trying to make sense of the world. So, um, but to answer your question about kind of where that started, I, I introduced early in the book, one of the most important characters who is my grandfather, who, um, You know, I don't think it's spoiling too much to say turned out to be gay, came out late in life around age 60 as a widower.

Um, and, you know, he was born in the 1920s and [00:15:00] served in World War II. Um, not in combat, he's a doctor, but, uh, you know, he's, he's a veteran and he. You know, he, he's kind of lived the typical life of the greatest generation and raised kids and got married and had a career and contributed to the community and then, um, found himself, I think, you know, grieving the loss of his, his wife and life and life partner who he, he loved, but also at a point where he had a secret he'd been hiding all of his life and was able to, um, sort of explore that part of himself that he'd had to stuff away for so long.

And You know, I gradually, I was very young child when, when this all happened and I didn't understand it and I, some of it was hidden from me and I kind of write in the book about how it was concealed and how I came to find it out and the real tension it created in my family over, you know, at the same time that my grandpa was coming out and, and figuring out who he was, my parents were [00:16:00] deep in the, um, evangelical right, you know, the Christian conservative movement of the 1980s.

And, and so they were, you know, their values were very much at odds. And one of the things I talk about in the book is every night at dinner, just about, we would sit down and pray a prayer that, you know, that pray that grandpa would get saved. And, um, this wasn't something that was just hypothetical and abstract for me.

And it was very, very real for me. I would lie in bed at night, just worrying about his soul and praying for him. And, um, You know, I felt like I had to be on my best behavior and, and, and show him the truth or he was going to burn in hell forever. And that was terrifying for me. And so while I think I believed it sincerely at the time, because everyone around me did, it also just created this kind of crack in my soul in a way of this, this thing I was being asked to accept that, um, In many ways also felt at odds with all the love of God that I was being taught about, which was very attractive and beautiful to me.

So, [00:17:00] um, I think it started very young. It forced me from a very young age to understand that our perspective was not the only one and that the implications of our belief system were not positive for everyone, you know, for lack of a better way to put it. And then there were many other things after that.

Will Small: Mm. My next question was going to be about your grandpa, and it was, um, one of those parts of the book that really stood out as this Very beautiful human portrait, um, that was very real. The way you write about, um, I guess your fam, family relationships throughout the book. Uh, there's kind of a, a real compassion and an empathy for people, uh, without, uh, you know, romanticizing where there were, um, challenges in different relationships.

But the way you kind of bookended it with your grandpa's story, I found really fascinating and, and, and, um, tender in a, in a way. Um, Um, you know, in contrast with that, um, I guess you write about, I guess, the relationship with your [00:18:00] parents, um, and there are some moments in there that I think it's very vulnerable and brave of you to share that with the world.

Um, will your parents, uh, read this book or do they know about, um, this book?

Sarah McCammon: Uh, they know, and I, um, I thought hard about what to share and what not to share. And yes, there are some very personal and vulnerable Um, moments in the book, I shared them because I, I really wanted to, I thought of it back over my life and I said, what were the things that didn't work, you know, that made this impossible for me to, to continue to be a part of.

And some of them, um, surrounded sexuality and some of them surrounded the way that, um, focus on the family and, and other groups, um, Of that ilk, uh, talked about parenting and, you know, physical discipline, corporal punishment was a huge part of evangelical culture. It was, and it wasn't just, um, you know, spread the rods, boil the child kind of [00:19:00]stuff, which is not unusual, but it was also overlaid with this spirituality that like, um, you know, God wants parents to discipline their kids in this way because they're sinners.

And then when you juxtapose that with, purity culture, which said that you should, you know, cover your body up. Don't let anybody touch you. And there was a lot of shame, I think, attached to the body. Then to be disciplined in a very physical way, um, for me, it was, it, it was really humiliating. And a source of a lot of trauma and something that I knew I never wanted my children to experience.

Um, and, and that was, you know, that was never a question for me when I became a parent. So, um, I felt it was important to write about that and I knew it wasn't just me. I talked to a lot of people that have a lot of pain and a lot of trauma from, from that part of their childhoods as well. Uh, we also have a lot of research now and I think even did then when I was a kid, but even more now that says that, that, you know, [00:20:00] spanking children is not.

It's not healthy. It's harmful. Um, but people like focus on the family, James Dobson and others continued to advocate it. Now, you know, they, they jobs that in particular mitigated that by, uh, saying that it should be done calmly and without anger. And I appreciate that. But I think, uh, that doesn't always translate for a kid when you're a vulnerable child, and it's your parent who, you know, You know, normally is very loving and warm and affectionate and and suddenly is treating you this way.

It's very confusing and kind of disillusioning. So I felt it was important to write about that because it is. It's such a commonplace part of, of evangelical culture for, for kids who grow up in it. Um, you know, I, I tried to say, I mean, obviously I talk about my parents. I couldn't talk about my childhood and my upbringing without doing so.

Um, I tried to be selective about what I said and just say the things I felt were most important and most relevant. Um, but that is a difficult part of it. Um, I'll be honest. And so [00:21:00] I, I ran, um, many sections of the book past them before I published and, uh, And took their input to heart, um, but ultimately I felt that I wanted to, I needed to say what I needed to say.

So,

Will Small: I, I really appreciate your, your vulnerability in that. And I do think it will speak to a lot of people's lived experiences. And I also think, as I mentioned with your grandpa, I think your portraits of people in the book across the whole spectrum, I think you just wrote in a very dignifying way of people, even when you were critiquing the behaviors or systems that, um, you know, they were and are within.

Um, so yeah, I, I'm,

Sarah McCammon: Um, I just think, I, I think it's important and I hope this came across in the book, but, you know, evangelical parents, the things that they, um, adopted and, and made a part of their, you know, our families, I think by and large for the rank and file, it was truly with good intentions.

It was a [00:22:00] desire to protect children, raise them the right way. You know, um, it was, it was based on sincerely held beliefs. Uh, but I think the reality for a lot of people was, was harmful.

Will Small: absolutely. I agree with that completely both in terms of the well intentioned nature, um, but then, you know, what we see now as the consequences. And it was interesting, right? Cause I, you know, again, this book it's, it's deeply personal, but it is also speaking to these larger cultural shifts. And as I was reading it, I was kind of struck that one way you could interpret this whole kind of event, exvangelical culture shift is as a generational rift where you've kind of got, you know, there was this system that.

Evangelical baby boomer parents were, um, participating within that now you kind of have this mass group of, um, Gen X and Millennials who are kind of dealing with the hangover. [00:23:00] Um, and then also asking questions around, well, how now do I raise my children and a lot of the ex evangelical people I talk to, it's a huge question around.

I know what I don't want to do, but I'm still kind of unsure about the right way forward. And I know that the categories, they're all a little bit, you overly simplistic, because I know plenty of baby boomers that would identify as exvangelical or have done their own kind of deconstructing. So it's not always mapped clearly, but I did think reading it, it's like, you could really look at this as just a tale of generational rifts and gaps.

And I wonder from your perspective, how much do you kind of see it as something that kind of does fall along those generational lines?

Sarah McCammon: I think that's definitely a piece of it. I think, um, you know, the data is all over the place. I mean, I think what we can say for sure is that White Christianity is on the decline in the United States. And that is partly because of disaffiliation, but partly because of [00:24:00] demographic shifts. You know, the country is just less white and less Christian.

And so, um, you know, one of the things I was trying to get a handle on as I was seeing all of this discussion, you know, anecdotally, I mean, like, I think the exvangelical hashtag has Had over a billion views, um, last time I checked, which was quite a while ago, and so, you know, something was going on, but, but, like, exactly where is it happening?

What age group is it happening with? I mean, like, there's debate about that. There's this group that, or this book, The Great De Churching, that has a lot of data from, uh, I believe it was, the Barna group, I'd have to double check, but it's like an evangelical, um, source of data that looked at, at disaffiliation and, and it, you know, it found that, I think that, um, ex evangelicals as it defined ex evangelicals, which is a little differently than how I would define them, were a little bit older than, than I would have thought.

And so I, I don't think it's just one group, but I think, What's clearly happening is that there's a huge amount of, uh, [00:25:00] cultural shift happening within, uh, certainly evangelical Christianity. Um, we're seeing, you know, a huge rise in people who identify as nothing at all, nuns, N O N E S. Um, that group in the U.

S. is now bigger than evangelicals. And some of those people, although not all, but some of them grew up I think many as, as evangelical. Um, it's, and so I think we're in a place where the terms are, they've always been a little squishy with defining evangelicalism versus. born again versus fundamentalist, you know, what word do you use?

What does it mean? And now, like figuring out which of these nuns are ex evangelicals, which were nothing, were never anything at all. You know, um, I think the next like 10 or 20 years will be really fascinating to see the data get a little bit more sorted. But again, what's really clear is that the American church, the white American church is is changing rapidly.

It is shrinking. And, um, I think in part because of the Internet, people can find each other [00:26:00] online and have these conversations and sort of unpack these questions in a way that wasn't really possible, you know, even 20 years ago. So yes, to some extent it is generational, but I think there are also people of older generations who may have harbored these questions and struggles for a long time who are now now also finding a place to, um, you know, talk about them and explore them.

You know, it was interesting,

Will Small: absolutely, I was, I was quite surprised, uh, maybe a year ago, I did a little listener survey, uh, for this podcast, kind of asking, you know, what demographics, um, are you in, and I was surprised that there was like a really equal split between Baby Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials. I would have thought that it was predominantly Millennials, um, but, you know, this is unashamedly a podcast that's really delving into those conversations that are critiquing.

Um, that kind of, I guess, upbringing that, that many of us had. Um, and yeah, I suppose that it was, it was, uh, of interest to me to see that there are many [00:27:00] people that have long harbored those questions and sometimes it seems like actually Their children asking the questions has given them the permission to say, I've had that question the whole time.

There just wasn't necessarily the permission to, to say it out loud. And again, I mean, your portrait of your, your grandpa is another person who, how different might his life have been if he was able to, you know, be raised in this moment where he might have, Had to hide less. So it's interesting. There's always that, that kind of interplay between those things.

Um, the term exvangelical is, is a complicated one and we've started to kind of get at that. And there are a few ways that in the book you kind of highlight the, the complexity of it. One is, um, to kind of highlight that exvangelical. Um, can still be a very white term and you quote Jemar Tisby, who talks about how that's because the kind of evangelicalism that it is rejecting is the white evangelical, um, church, which is very different from the black church in the [00:28:00] States.

And uh, I thought that was really interesting and a point that someone like me would do well to sit with and to ponder. And certainly there's been an increasing amount of conversation, um, here in Australia in the circles I move in around what it looks like to decolonize Christianity, not just to deconstruct, but to decolonize.

But I wonder how much did that kind of become a heightened part of your awareness as you kind of looked at some of the, the racial lines and divides that some of these terms fall across in the States.

Sarah McCammon: Yes, I mean, I think fundamentally someone asked me why I put the word white in the title and it's well certainly, you know The racial lines are complicated, right? I mean, what is white evangelicalism versus just evangelicalism? I mean, it's not as if there's like a specific white evangelical theology any more than there is a specific evangelical theology It's this umbrella term that that holds a lot but you know, if you look at the data White evangelicals or people [00:29:00] who fall into that category vote very differently than their black and brown counterparts on the whole.

Not to say that there aren't more conservative black and brown evangelicals. There are, and not to say that there aren't some more liberal or progressive white evangelicals because there are, but if you talk in groups, there are big differences and there are theological differences, um, or at least differences in the way that theology is expressed.

And so, um, I have to say growing up, it wasn't something I thought about very much, you know, I write about the fact that in like the 90s when I was a teenager, there was a lot of conversation around diversifying the church and a lot of concern. I think it was sincere concern on the part of the white evangelical leaders, pastors I knew, um, about the fact that the church was so segregated.

But I don't think that there was always a thorough understanding of why that was, or the history that led up to it, or the reasons that, um, maybe black and brown Christians didn't feel included in white evangelical spaces. Uh, and there were efforts to bridge those gaps and build relationships, like my [00:30:00] church had, um, A relationship with a church that was predominantly black and and sometimes they would do projects and events together But it you know It never really felt like it's stuck and I think there are a whole lot of reasons for that and in reasons that I Don't claim to fully understand but I think I understand a little bit more as an adult especially after talking with Christians like Jemar Tisby who, you know, has had, had described his own experiences growing up or, or spending time in predominantly white evangelical spaces, but always kind of feeling on the margins and kind of feeling like the concerns, um, some of his concerns that he held as a, as a black American man were not fully appreciated or taken seriously.

And I do think, um, You know, the voices that we platform and we, and I mean that literally like the voices we put up on the stage shape the conversation and shape the theology and the areas of concern and they shape which verses we focus on and which Bible verses we kind of ignore. And, you know, I think it's hard [00:31:00] to ignore the fact that those conversations have mostly been shaped, um, at least in the American church by, by white men and straight white men and, uh, Nothing wrong with straight white men, but they're not the only perspective.

And I think, you know, the voices of queer people, people of color, women, et cetera, are just as valuable. And I think if, if they are included, the, the things that we focus on are going to be different. And I think that's reflected again, somewhat in the, in the politics and in the polling that we see.

Will Small: Yeah, I think this is where another way in which the term exvangelical gets a little complicated is, um, for some people it's really, I'm rejecting, um, you know, white supremacy. I'm rejecting, um, you know, these certain other kind of patriarchy or I'm rejecting these other elements that have been infused with Christianity, but I'm not, I'm not rejecting, um, Christianity or Jesus necessarily.

[00:32:00] Um, and then you have other people who, those things are absolutely like woven together in a way that they, they don't think you can separate them. And so the term exvangelical refers more to a foundation that people grew up within. But it doesn't refer to where they end up. You have this very diverse trajectory under that kind of umbrella term of ex evangelicals who are trying to kind of, you know, put together a faith that works as well as those who have just completely rejected, um, faith.

So unlike perhaps the term evangelical, where there's a certain sense of this common. Um, what we orient around currently, exvangelical, is, is about where we locate our history, even though our trajectories may be very different. Um, how do you think about that in terms of just the, you know, again, the squishy nature of this term, but, um, is it helpful or unhelpful when it can be trying to hold such a diversity of, uh, different kind of arrival points or, [00:33:00] or, you know, points in progress that people find themselves moving towards?

Okay.

Sarah McCammon: Um, and I have to give credit for the term to Blake Chastain, who, who has a podcast by the same name. And, uh, I think it's, it's widely seen as, as sort of coining the term, uh, something like eight years ago. He, um, I had not heard the term exvangelical until I started reporting a piece for NPR in, uh, 2016, just before the election.

I was talking to evangelical women, um, after the infamous, uh, Access Hollywood video. Uh, with Donald Trump, talking to them about how they were sort of making sense of that and hearing from a lot of women who were, you know, very unhappy and uncomfortable. And, and one of them said, you know, I've heard this term exvangelical, um, and it's just kind of a way of people saying like, we used to be evangelical, but we're not that anymore.

And I think that really stuck with me and I started thinking about it. As I continue sort of thinking about these themes and my own experience and and the thing [00:34:00] that I mean every the term has many limitations, right? Like it doesn't tell you what you think now, but I also think that's kind of the beauty of it like what I think it really describes well is this idea that there is a shared culture in history and when you come from this world It shapes you forever and it shapes the way you think about things and the kind of questions that you have and maybe some of the struggles that you have.

And so, um, I thought it was valuable in that regard, especially because it points to this, this, uh, religious movement that has been so influential, had such an outsized influence in the United States. And so, for those of us who come from it, I think, um, That history is always with us, and it always shapes who we are, and, and you're right, for some people that means retaining a Christian identity, for other people it doesn't, uh, and I think, you know, but that's also one of the things I've noticed about a lot of these spaces, whether it is Facebook groups, or podcasts like yours, um, Most of them are places where people talk about, you know, Brio [00:35:00] magazine, and, um, you know, their purity rings, and making sense of, you know, talking to their family members about, you know, how to make sense of things like, you know, their sexuality, for example.

Maybe they're struggling with not being accepted by a family member because of something about their identity. Whatever it may be, Many of these spaces are, are shared spaces where people have arrived at a lot of different places, but they're there because they're talking about a similar background. Um, and I, you know, I think thinking about it as a subculture is a really, is a really valuable way to think about it.

Uh, I, I said that before, but, but once I, I think I first heard someone use the term, one of my college professors actually at my evangelical college referred to the evangelical subculture. And I was just like, Wow, that's what it is. Like suddenly there's a name for it. And I think that is so powerful. Like each of these, these names and definitions have their limits, but they also say something, um, same thing with the term [00:36:00] deconstruction, you know?

And so to finally have a language for this stuff that like, I've been experiencing for a really long time. And I know many of us have for me, that was really exciting because it's like, once you have a word for it, it feels real and it's sort of validating

Will Small: Yeah, I think that's helpful. And um, obviously all, all, you know, shorthand terms are bound to have their limitations, but you know what you just said made me think about, uh, I do some work in kind of the mental health space and there's a psychologist who I've talked to a few times who specializes in kind of disaster recovery and he talks about, you know, his kind of way of understanding.

Um, trauma is like, um, your stomach stops working, like you cannot digest, um, and he says that what groups of people, when, when groups of people get together and share their stories and talk about their, their trauma, their trauma experiences together, they kind of create a shared stomach where they were no longer able to have an individual stomach.

And I sort of think that's a pretty [00:37:00] helpful image for this sense of actually that space of just being able to share the stories, to be able to revisit. The past, not in a way that's kind of about dwelling there forever, but that's about, I can't really process this without actually processing it in the, in the presence of people who understand some of the unique nuances of what it meant to grow up with those magazines or with, you know, constant Um, CCM music or whatever it was, all those things again.

Um, so I do think it's helpful in that sort of like, uh, that sense and where a lot of these podcasts and groups have kind of helped to create that space for processing. I suppose there's a whole separate and interesting question around what, what does come next. And you referenced in the book, people like David Gushee, David's been on this podcast a couple of times, you know, and obviously he's one of those people that's going again, it's one of those.

Terms that kind of does primarily locate itself around evangelical still being the, the primary thing that defines me at this point in time, or what does [00:38:00] it look like to be, you know, moving into a more constructive next identity? I guess you can be both. You can go, I, I, you know, I'm an ex evangelical, I understand what it's like to grow up in that world.

And at this point in time, I'm also exploring, uh, he talks about Christian humanism as kind of a term that he likes, things like that. So. Ramble, ramble there. Um,

Sarah McCammon: I mean, and you're right. I interviewed David for the book and I thought, I think, you know, he's still very much identifies as a Christian and even as a pastor. And I, I loved one of the things he said to me for the book. I think I asked him, um, you know, something like why stay in the Christian space?

Why? You know, why is that where you are still? And because I'm always interested in kind of why people, if they're, if they're making a move, like how far they go and why, and, and he said, you know, as a pastor, I, and I'm paraphrasing here, but as a pastor, I feel like people need to have. something to, you know, to guide them and they need, they need, and for me, that's, that's found in Jesus.

And I thought it was really beautiful [00:39:00] that, um, you know, he thinks about it that in that pastoral kind of way, still, even as someone who has, whose, whose faith has evolved quite a bit,

Will Small: podcast grew out of, we have a small, a small, very alternative faith community. Uh, it is a church as far as I'm concerned. There are plenty of other people out there who might look at it and go, you're not ticking enough of the church boxes to be a church. Um, but I do think from that pastoral sense of ultimately.

Um, you know, what I'm interested in, whether it's through a podcast or a community, and you talk about this in the book too, but wherever people can find those places of connection and kind of positive grounding, um, you know, and, and fulfilling those functions that I guess were the promises that the church maybe sometimes failed to deliver on, but was always, I guess, kind of the aspiration.

That it was supposed to be this place of, um, uh, building a level of community [00:40:00] cohesion and, and belonging and, um, orientation towards the good, the beautiful, the just, um, that many of us still struggle to shake that, right? And even as you kind of, um, touch on your own evolving journey, there is still, you speak about, um, still being kind of fascinated by, um, and compelled by that image of Jesus as the one who does.

Orient people towards loving their neighbours. And, and, and you have this beautiful, um, phrase towards the end of the book where you say, Peace, when I have found it, has come from accepting that I don't have to solve the riddle of the universe or uncover any magical answers. That life isn't an elaborate calculus problem and that God isn't waiting to punish us if we make an error.

I don't have the answers, but I'm not sure I'm meant to. And I just resonate with that so much. I find it very beautiful, but when you kind of articulate little fragments of where you've arrived, it's no longer characterized by a certainty or by a statement of beliefs, but it does seem to be [00:41:00] characterized by what I would say as many of the, you know, like signs of spiritual maturity that, that you can be curious, that you can be open, that you're looking for the good.

Um, yeah, and, and it's interesting that in that phrase I just read, you know, it's about finding peace, which again is one of the apparent offerings of a Christian worldview in inverted commas. Um, yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit more about, it sounds like from reading the book, your, your kind of timeline of like deconstruction was earlier than this particular cultural moment.

Sarah McCammon: sure.

Will Small: But you, but you talk about how. Um, obviously that upbringing, it still shapes you today and is still a part of, um, so much of your lived experience. As you delved back into this, uh, what did you discover around kind of just where you sit with, um, with that kind of approach to spirituality and to, um, yeah, trying to have that kind of humble, but curious [00:42:00] open posture towards the

Sarah McCammon: Well, I'll just say I would, I would love to have the answers, like, I would, I would love to know, like, you know, what it all means and what's true and what's right, um, and I've definitely asked God for, you know, to reveal the truth to me, whatever it may be, many times, um, and so I just have to kind of, I mean, for me, faith now means kind of trusting that, that God is good and that if I am sincerely trying to find You know, trying to live the life that I was meant to live, whatever that means, that, that it'll be okay.

I mean, I don't, I don't think, I mean, the Bible says, right, that if you ask in faith, God will, will answer essentially. And, and I, um, but I'm not comfortable pretending like I have an answer that I don't. So. Uh, where have I landed? I mean, yes, I think it's really important that there was one review. It was a very nice review of the book, but it said that I, it sort of suggested that I had deconstructed, deconstructed because of the Trump movement.

And, and that's really not the case. I, I [00:43:00] had deconstructed long before that. It was really just this moment that made me sort of more aware of other people's journeys and, and, um, wanting to sort of talk about them in conjunction with my own, I think, I mean, I think, and I hope in a way that this will be a lifelong process, like I don't.

I think as long as we're alive, there's room for growth and learning, and I certainly hope to continue that. Um, I, you know, I stopped, I don't, I never really used the word evangelical, even when I went to an, a college that literally had the word evangelical in the name. Um, but, I, um, well, it was, it was in the, it was in the graduate school's name, I was the, At the undergrad college of this, this place, but nonetheless, um, it wasn't, I always just called myself a Christian and I'm less apt to use labels today, but I think that, um, I think that, I don't know, I would, I would love to, I would love to land somewhere, but I also don't necessarily [00:44:00] think that's, I can't honestly say that I have at this point.

And again, one of the really meaningful parts of writing this book was talking to people that were at all different places with that journey and feeling like we had something in common, you know, like some basic resonance, um, which kind of made me feel less alone in that journey, whatever you, however you want to describe it.

Will Small: I think, like, trying to let go of the anxiety of having to label it, to land, to arrive. You know, I think that in itself, um, is maybe something worth people dwelling on. Like, why do I feel so much internal pressure to have to have, again, it comes back to that, having to have these kind of like answers to the mystery of the universe.

Even that reveals, uh, a kind of certain internal prioritizing of maybe things that we can, we can try and let go of. Um, I think a really beautiful, um, illustration of [00:45:00] this, again, from your own story, you talked about, you know, you were initially married young to another young evangelical. Um, it was very much in, in a lot of ways, um, uh, a kind of picture of a relationship that many people will.

Uh, immediately go, Oh, yeah, that's, that's how it's done by the book in that, in that world. And that marriage lasted a long time. And again, you write, um, you know, with a lot of, a lot of, um, empathy towards your past selves and that whole journey. Um, but that marriage eventually ended and, uh, you remarried, um, to a Jewish person and you, you kind of give some windows into what it looks like to have this shared space of.

Generosity towards each other's traditions, histories, and, and living spirituality and how that actually looks in terms of some of the things in, in your house and what it means when you go to synagogue. And I found that really beautiful. I wonder if you'd be happy to share a little bit [00:46:00] about what, what that shared space of spiritual, you know, life or I'd say, I don't like that term, but do you know what I mean?

Like just, yeah, share a little bit about

Sarah McCammon: Yeah. You know, when I, um, When I met my husband, my second husband, my current husband, hopefully my forever husband, I think, um, We, I, I didn't, you know, I think at that time I would have said that it didn't matter to me too much if the person that I wound up with, you know, was, um, a progressive Christian, uh, you know, a Christian who was open to other other beliefs, not religious, something else.

Um, but I think the, I found that, you know, almost surprisingly he's, he's a reformed Jew. So, um, we were able to have an interfaith ceremony, which, um, which, which we found a rabbi who, who allowed that. And, um, Or, you know, for us to be married under a chuppah without me converting. And I really appreciated that.

You know, it was, it was primarily a Jewish [00:47:00] ceremony, but we included a Christian poem, Mary Oliver, one of my favorite Christian poets and

Will Small: Oh, we

Sarah McCammon: yeah. And, uh, and you know, our home does reflect that through like our art and. Some of, um, some of the different things we have on the walls, symbols and things like that.

And I've been surprised how much it's meant to me to be with someone who does have a spiritual background and takes faith seriously and believes in God and believes in prayer. And in many ways I felt through sort of comparing and contrasting and sharing our traditions with one another, I have felt more free to appreciate.

My own spirituality, I felt more comfortable with prayer and, um, you know, it's, it's from a much less certain place than when I was younger or much less sort of directed and specific place, but I found like a new kind of resonance with, with the idea of, of, of being spiritual and, you know, um, my husband, when I met him said he wasn't that religious, but, you know, it was just [00:48:00] sort of, But but he he kind of he kind of is more than I think he admits like the high holy days are very important to him and so we go to those services and And he's gone to church with me before with with my children and my former spouse even and so it's interesting Excuse me.

It's it's interesting To kind of figure that out. But I think because we both have respect for one another and love for one another and a sincere interest in the other person and their thoughts and feelings and their journey, it, it works. Um, it, you know, it wouldn't work for a lot of people, especially somebody who is more grounded in a more traditional, you know, evangelical faith.

I don't think that would work with, with any other faith, but it does for me. And actually, I truly feel like it has enriched my, um. My understanding of, of God or, or, or the divine or spirituality or whatever word you want to use. I feel more at home with it in a way.[00:49:00]

Will Small: I think it's a, it's a really lovely kind of microcosm of what I would actually love to see happen. You're right.

Sarah McCammon: of the day. I'm just getting dry. Go ahead.

Will Small: we're almost, almost done. I see that as a really lovely microcosm of actually what I would love to see happen in terms of the place Christianity could hold in, in society in a place like Australia and definitely the US, um, where, you know, I think it has typically, and again, this kind evangelicalism that we've talked about that does not represent all Christianity in all places.

But what it has done is it has taken up. all the space. It has bled out over all the edges. It has announced itself as the way and any other way needs to get out of the way. And yet I think of that picture of a household where there are different traditions, um, endearing together, learning from each other, having a great respect for each other [00:50:00] without having to necessarily just become some puddle.

of the same thing, um, that is, to me, a real picture of what I personally hope for in terms of at least the kind of Christianity I would want to participate in or be part of communities that participate in. That it doesn't see itself as having to take up all the space in the room, that it can have shared art on the walls, so to speak, while still bringing authentically what it is.

So I think it's a very helpful, again, I think, you know, to have sort of hammered at home a bit, but the book really does. That beautiful line of, here's how this looks in an individual personal context, but also here's what that, that has meant across this larger, this larger cultural shift.

Sarah McCammon: Thank

Will Small: Um, I, I want to honor your time.

It's, it's the end of the day, um, you're losing your voice, you, you deserve to go home and, you know, um, tap out at this point, but. Yeah. Drink [00:51:00] some water. Um, but yeah, I, I love to just give the last word to, to, you know, the people I interview and particularly thinking about, again, this is the people that you've been interviewing and the people that you've been writing for in many ways, as you think about those that find themselves on the edge who grew up in these spaces, some who want to maintain a stake in that world and others who are just maybe trying to gently figure out what life looks like in a different way.

What would be the kind of main things after, after writing this book, main kind of things you'd want to kind of just leave people pondering, dwelling on, contemplating as they, you know, leave this conversation?

Sarah McCammon: Well, I I hope that I hope that people will read the book. Obviously I wrote it because I felt that there was something to say at this moment about this kind of experience and I hope that people will feel seen who come from this world and are exe angelical or or whatever word you want to use but have have [00:52:00] had to wrestle with their faith.

And I actually think it will resonate for, um, for some people who come from other faiths as well. Um, there's a whole ex Mormon community online that's really interesting and I see a lot of parallels there too. So I think, um, I, I hope that people feel seen and validated and that their stories have, are spoken to in a way.

Um, I also hope that they'll be able to share it with, you People, you know, with their maybe non religious partners or partners from other traditions or friends. Um, because I think there's something really valuable about being able to say like, this is kind of what it's like and I want you to understand this and also understand kind of where this all came from.

Uh, so I hope that, that those who are more on the outside or just interested in, in understanding evangelicalism more because it's been such an influential movement, um, in our, in the U. S. and in the world really. I hope that it will Give them a clearer picture of, of what this experience is like, and maybe even empathy, you know, I think the more we understand, um, different stories and perspectives, the more we [00:53:00] understand one another and can be, uh, kind and supportive and, and so I, I really hope it will mean something to, to both of those groups and even to people still in evangelicalism that, um, I would love to see, you know, parents of, of adults who have, have left and are hurt by that.

Maybe read the book and, and just sit with it a little bit and try to understand that I don't think any of us have walked away because we wanted to cause pain. Um, it's because really we were, as I kind of start the book by saying we were taught to pursue truth and authenticity. And, um, I think, and I hope that, that these kinds of journeys are part of doing that.

Will Small: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. Um, there are, there are some books that I read before podcast interviews and, you know, they're great books, but I skim them. And um, some books I make it through enough chapters to put together some interview questions. I read every [00:54:00] single word of your

Sarah McCammon: Oh, thank

Will Small: I didn't skim any of it because I was, I was gripped and I did feel seen and I feel like it's a really important work.

Sarah McCammon: Well, thank you. This has been such a great conversation and I really appreciate your thoughtful questions and I'm so glad it meant something to you. So thanks again.