Will & Hannah debrief 'Prosper'

Will and Hannah debrief their thoughts after binging 'Prosper' on Stan. 

We avoid spoilers, and there's still plenty of interesting questions here for people who haven't watched the show. So get yourself a cuppa and join us as we discuss wealth,  celebrity pastors, corruption and more.

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Transcript

 

Will Small: [00:00:00] Hey friends, my name's Will. And my name's Hannah. And you're listening to the Spiritual Misfits Podcast.   

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: If you've ever found yourself on the fringes of Christian faith, this is a safe space for you. 

Will Small: Your questions, doubts, and hopes are all welcome here.  

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: We're creating conversations, affirmations, meditations, and other resources to support you on your spiritual journey.

Will Small: and let you know that even if you feel like a misfit, you don't have to feel alone.

My friend, Hannah, welcome back to the podcast. How are you? 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Thanks friend. Good. Good. I'm always very glad when it's time for a pub theology chat. 

Will Small: Well this was going to be a pub theology chat with the the Trinitarian [00:01:00] hub theology group. But Mitchell, Mitchell Forbes is not here. But it's been a while since it's just been the OGs, you know, just, just the intro voices representing.

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: That's it. I hope we can keep it going and not like fail miserably. 

Will Small: In the spirit of pub theology, it sort of exists somewhere in, I don't know, is it technically not a pub theology? Is it I am currently not drinking alcohol during Lent. I'm two weeks in and I have to say I'm feeling pretty, pretty proud of my effort so far.

Do you have a drink of any kind with you there? In your digital side of the pub? 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Well, yeah, that's, I'm also not drinking alcohol tonight, not for any spiritual reason, I just did not feel like it. So, I've got a really good cup of tea going. 

Will Small: Well, it's clearly not a pub. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Maybe, like, because we're about to discuss a TV show, maybe it's two mates, got the popcorn [00:02:00] out, watching the TV, discussing.

Things as we watch them, maybe that can be the scenario we've built around this episode. 

Will Small: It needs a better name, but I do think it could be, it could be its own thing. This as, as you just alluded to, we're going to do like a bit of a response to some popular culture episode. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Oh, look at us, look at us go.

Maybe even some TikTok.  later. That's a joke.  I don't know how to TikTok.  

Will Small:.Me neither. But this could be, this could be its own like side series. Of episodes, which is like spiritual misfits respond to insert whatever it is here. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: I like that. Except I think the only thing I could do is just talk extensively about RuPaul's Drag Race.

It's pretty much the only thing I watch in depth, so I might need to diversify my viewing if we do that. 

Will Small: Fair call. Well, we'll start with one. We'll see how it's received. What are we chatting about tonight, my friend? 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: We are talking [00:03:00] about the TV series Prosper that just came out on Stan this year. And I don't know about you, but I binged it in a couple of days, so just could not stop watching it.

Will Small: I also binged it as well. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Yeah. And it's funny cause My husband Lance watched one episode with me, it's like, nah, can't do it. So then I like obsessively watched it. 

Will Small: This is exactly the same, but in reverse. Me and Sam watched one episode together and she wasn't into it, probably for different reasons.

And funnily enough, I caught up with Lance like a week ago. And he was telling me his side of not continuing to watch it, but Oh, okay. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Yeah. Well, that might also bring some interest to this conversation because we've discussed it and his reasons for not watching it are, I think, what compelled me to watch it with great relish.

So I think like, it's really interesting, just the reactions it's, it's It's triggered in people. 

Will Small: Very interesting. And I want to say up front, a couple of things for [00:04:00] some people it may not be helpful viewing depending on how recently they've been in spaces like this or what kind of experiences they have.

Obviously for some people that may also be the very reason that you want to watch it because there is kind of a, I don't know, like there's a therapeutic nature. To watching something maybe showed in an honest light that was a place that you experienced negatively. So yeah, but in saying that, what I want to say is let's have a conversation that does not require people to have watched it or to have watched it.

I think there's plenty there we can talk about in a way that let's try and be as spoiler free as possible. But I think there's plenty of stuff that we can kind of. You know, definitely sink our teeth into without giving away particular plot points. Do you reckon? 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: I think so. I have a nasty habit of giving things away without meaning to, so if I do, just shout at me.

Okay. 

Will Small: Maybe I could do some cool editing afterwards where I play some [00:05:00] like some Hillsong y music like over the top of your spoilers or, or underneath. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: I think like better than the the flame motif we had going early on in our popiology. Sad that didn't continue. Actually, or worse. I did like it. But I think Killsong music over the top could be more problematic.

I don't know. Who knows? Well, 

Will Small: maybe the episode will finish with like an altar call and we'll put some like really lovely emotive keys underneath it. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: I was going to say with like a quest for some donations of money. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to be too facetious, but. Let's start talking about the TV show.

Will Small: Let's do it. I did want to say my, like, I've got one joke I've got to get out of the way here. For anyone who maybe is hesitant to watch it because they're a bit of a Christian apologist or an apologist for Hillsong or any other churches that it may bear some resemblance to whether coincidental or not.

If you are an apologist for this sort of thing, and you don't like the [00:06:00] idea that there's a show making it look somewhat negative, then you may have noted that it is on Stan, which is only one letter short of Satan. So who's streaming service is it, right?

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Geez, I never thought of it that way. 

Will Small: That's amazing and horrifying. I had to get, I had to get it in there. Now we can continue. That's 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: almost on par of like Satan or Santa is an anagram of Satan, that kind of conspiracy theory. Yes. Yes. Well done. Okay. Yeah. So they, 

Will Small: they would, they would make a show like this.

There's so many things we could talk about. What about let's just pretend that I haven't seen it and we're catching up for a tea and you're giving me the lowdown. I've been watching this new show, like what's, what's the essential. Setting, set the scene for us. What is this show about Hannah? 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: It is about a family who runs a mega church in Australia, Sydney and it's the [00:07:00]ins and outs of the church, but you see a lot of behind the scenes stuff and the family dynamics and the extreme dysfunction of the family, but also.

The machinations of the church and I don't like so much of this Pentecostal culture, but also the really sobering aspects of it and the, the ambition and the control and the power of, of this kind of structure. Was that succinct enough? Anything you want to add? 

Will Small: That was good. That's good. It made me want to watch.

Thanks. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Did it, I feel like I needed to add some more drama because I did see when I was looking up, it was like someone described it as Dallas meets succession. Yes. And I was like, well oh, okay. So this is a show that Lance and I have tried to watch twice with full intention to be like, yes, everyone's into it.

We are missing something. And each time we're like, I just don't like it. So I think there might be something wrong with us because it seems like the rest of the world loves it. I get the appeal, but I don't [00:08:00] enjoy watching it. What about you? Look, I've watched 

Will Small: it. I love it with the rest of the world, but I'm not going to judge you.

We're 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: the freaks. I'm sorry. I don't like, I don't know what's wrong. I just can't. I don't know. We've tried really earnestly. It's just 

Will Small: not our jam. What, what it bears in common with Prosper is that as much as it's about. You know, that one's about a family like company, big, like big, you know Murdoch empire type of parallel.

As much as it's about that, it's about the family and arguably more about the family. And similarly here, as much as it's sort of about the church, really, it's about the family. And in that way, it's just very good Australian drama, I would say. But for those of us who have had experiences in church, and I'd say like, it's interesting because I'm watching this as someone who had little overlapping moments with Pentecostal spaces.

You know, I went to Hillsong conference a couple of times in my teenage years. I was like semi involved. With a [00:09:00] local like Canberra's version you know, all, all these churches that end in UC Canberra's church that ended in a UC, which is funny because the, the church in the show is U Star.

So anyway, I, I will acknowledge that I'm watching it as someone who there's things I can recognize from my limited experience, but it's also like probably a more enjoyable and easy watch for me because I was not. You know, particularly I guess exploited in that world as some people genuinely are which we can kind of get into that stuff and, and you've got, you, you've in your background, there are like charismatic spaces.

How did they compare? To like the, I guess, the sort of stereotype of a Hillsong or a C3.

Yeah, 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: I, I've talked about this before where I, I, for years thought charismaticism was somehow very removed from all of these [00:10:00] spaces, and then I realised, wait, it's just. A very close cousin of Pentecostalism. And that shocked me. So I think I still had a bit of a hangover of that thought when I was watching this show, like, Oh yeah, I know a lot about Hillsong.

I dabbled with it in my youth and I had lots of friends there. So I know all about it. And I have like, cannot stop reading about it now. So I feel like I know all about it. But I thought that was a cerebral project. Whereas when I was watching and I was like, Oh, actually a lot of this resonates with my experience.

And I would say I was very involved with, I would, you'd probably call it a mega church, but nothing on the scale of nothing on the scale of Hillsong. And the church I was involved in, I don't know how to, like, it was just much healthier in the way it treated people. And I was still working for free as a, as a volunteer, but I didn't feel exploited or, you yeah, just some of the really messed up stuff we saw [00:11:00] on, on Prosper or some of the stories that are coming out when people are speaking out about Hillsong now.

However, I definitely got like the worship hype that's shown in the, in the show. I got the conference intensity. I got the, the language that was used. I got the whole, how you can absolutely get lost in this culture and all your friends there. And yeah, there were things that were really uncomfortably close to my experience, even though the church I was involved with is not Hillsong by any means.

And I still have good relationship with that church in many ways, if, if that makes sense. Yeah. 

Will Small: And I think. I think this show, I mean, people will see it different ways, but from my perspective, I think it was balanced in that there was a lot of genuine intention shown. There was a lot of, um, like, I think it showed well, some of the, the [00:12:00] real wrestles.

And you know, the things that kind of are subtle, but they build up and, I mean, let's just, to get into it, one question that I came away with, and this is, it's interesting, the scale thing, because there are lots of very small churches that are like mega church aspirational, but really They're a much, much smaller, you know, they're never going to have the impact of something like Hillsong, obviously in this show, it's the fictional U Star, but like it's, it's, it's in Sydney, you know, the family live on the waterfront in this multi million dollar property.

It has so many parallels. So the scale thing is interesting because there's lots of smaller churches that would be, they would actually want to be like that, but they're not. And there are things that happen at that scale. And one of the questions I just felt like I kind of sat with while watching it is.

Isn't it wild that we live in a world Where someone can be a minister, you know, [00:13:00] who, who has given their life to follow you know, the work, to do the work of the Lord, and they can live in a multi million dollar property on the waterfront. Like, to me, that alone is a question. That raises a lot of other questions, right?

Like, just, and because the show does, you know, you spend a lot of time, like in other shows, like Succession or whatever, like, you're like watching Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous kind of thing, and you're like, oh my goodness, that's a nice house. I would like to be in that house. I would like to have that home gym.

I would like to have that many people kind of waiting on me, hand and foot. But to me, it's kind of like, how do you get there where that's justifiable for someone who is a pastor? Like and I've thought this, you know, we've talked about preachers and sneakers and there is this whole world of like the celebrity pastor, the like wealthy, influential pastor, but that is a phenomenon that I struggle to get my head around.

Is that like [00:14:00] a line of thinking you had while watching it, kind of the extravagance and the wealth? In a ministry space? 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it is such a hard area to get your head around. Cause it's also what's the flip side of that, that all pastors should be living in this poverty mindset and that they owe their churches, this explanation for their finances, but yeah, I think the show showed.

The obscenity of the extreme wealth they had and, you know, we're going to just fly you in on a helicopter just to have a chat and fly out again. That was a really telling scene and I think the extreme wealth though was inextricably linked to the corruption we started to see at the family. And so I don't think it was so much a comment on they've got all this money.

I think it was everything is decaying in this family's life. And all of the choices are poor. So. [00:15:00] Yeah. No, I agree. Like it was extreme wealth, but I think something that stood out to me in the staging of the church, especially with my experiences of Hillsong, I'm like, Oh, it's a little bit small and a little bit underplayed.

Cause if you know Hillsong, it's like stadium level. And I was like, actually the church isn't as impressive as it probably would be in real life. So I thought they actually underplayed the, the wealth and the resource a bit in the show compared to real life. And I don't think that point was made as much as.

It could have been. 

Will Small: Yeah. That's interesting. I suppose for me that really was like less about the church and more about the culture in which, which I guess this is part of the church, but like the culture in which it, it's, it's very easily justified and almost unquestioned. That a pastor deserves a lifestyle like that, and we're talking like a lifestyle that, because, you know, I, I, I definitely get [00:16:00] that there's that opposite end of the spectrum where, and probably this is what can help, help with that reasoning is, well, you know, as if I'm going to be serving the people doing this hard job.

You know, and it is, pastoring is hard and complicated, I will attest to that, but there could be this kind of level of building up this kind of argument around, you know, I should be taken care of, things should be comfortable, but that's kind of like a, you know, how long is a piece of string kind of question where it's like, where do you kind of cap that?

And for me, I felt for a long time, deeply uncomfortable about, you know, your Steven Furtick's or these kind of passes that like, they, they literally live like their tech company owners. It just seems wild to me, because it, I guess as soon as you start to look at the ethics of Jesus, I don't think Jesus has an ethic that demands everybody should live in poverty.

But I don't know if Jesus ethic really allows anybody to be, you know, living [00:17:00] at that level of wealth. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Yeah, I agree. I think I probably didn't articulate that very well in that I wasn't saying there's any excuse for the extreme wealth. Oh, I didn't hear you saying that. Yeah, no, but I don't think I, I don't think it is helpful to go that black and white of, well, you can't be extremely wealthy or extremely poor.

I think, yeah, there is so much more nuance there. I think of when Jesus is telling the rich young ruler like to, to, you know, to be part of this, this movement, you go and give away your wealth and the rich young ruler freaks out and is like, well, that's really sad. I can't be part of this. And I don't think that means you can't have any assets, but it is this obsession with wealth and.

Status and accumulation that he's after. And I think we saw all of that in, in this show, especially like a scene that really stood out to me and I don't know why, but he, he wants an ice bath. The next thing he's got an ice bath. And this is the [00:18:00] senior pastor Cal, I think. And then he's ice bathing every day.

And I was like, wow, just imagine having that lifestyle where literally anything you want, you will have. And I think it explains a lot of the behavior there. In wealth and in power and in position of influence, there is just no stopping these people. There is no sense of no or of appropriateness. And I think that is quite gross when you're seeing yeah, that level of that level of consumption and privilege and how incongruous it is with the messages they're trying to share of like, God loves you and is miraculous.

Or even, you know. Sorry, I'm, I'm ranting a lot about this, but I'm, I'm processing as I talk that scene where they are doing the camp out for the homeless. And I, you know, Hey guys, it's for a good cause you're going to give money. And this idea of like this performed goodness and milking people for money, but also just how much money they [00:19:00]have themselves.

And this. As long as it seems like you're doing good things, no one will ask any questions of the lifestyle they're living, but how happy they are to ask people for everything and they give nothing. So I think, yeah, there actually is like discussion of it in the show, but I, I was expecting more of it because I think that's one of the things I struggle with most about mega church movements like this is just that prosperity gospel grossness.

And I think there were other things focused on in this series rather than that. 

Will Small: Yeah. I mean, the prosperity gospel. To me, it's just, it just enables. In some ways the worst parts, the worst parts of us and I own like it's, I watch shows like this and I do like, there is a part of me that's like, imagine having a house like that.

I mean, who wouldn't like, in a sense, like you watch it and you feel desire. And I wonder like, you know, what I found really interesting. And I guess this is a parallel with [00:20:00] Hillsong and I know not everything in the show is parallel with Hillsong. It's kind of just, that's the establishing. You know, kind of parallel there and there's lots of things that are different, but there is this scene where one of their four children arguably the best character, Jed, he runs like a local homeless shelter.

And at the, at the beginning of the show, he's kind of, you know the outsider in the family. And there is, you know, they have to, you know, do these sort of PR stunts to try and make it look like the family are unified when there is a son who has. It's explicitly said, look at this church. This doesn't look like what Jesus would be, you know, into or supportive of.

And there's a scene where the, the mom goes to visit him where he's working in the homeless shelter and they have a conversation and she says, this is just like our first church. Back then we had to, you know, we had to borrow everything, we had to beg for everything. And then he says on the stealing came later.

And I find it really interesting to [00:21:00] think, you know, things that start with humble beginnings. Hillsong started in, in like a school hall or something and it had humble beginnings and, and I don't doubt the good intentions there or anything like that. But when something begins to kind of have this like avalanching energy, you can see how you would just, you just move up the run, right?

You just go, you know, obviously we've got enough people coming that we can justify the next building or whatever. And this is where I think the scale thing is interesting, because once a church starts to be playing with those sort of numbers that a Hillsong is If your model is just to try and keep growing the thing bigger and then it eventually becomes, well, let's try and make the thing global and we'll have the global senior pastors and we'll have, you know, our mission is just to like, kind of bring our brand across the world.

You can kind of understand how, like you don't go from meeting in a school hall to living in the multimillion dollar beachfront property [00:22:00] overnight, but you can kind of see that there is. A way that that like, you know, you could just imagine little things and even in my own, like I'm, I'm nowhere near that, but I can see times in my younger life where if I could see certain things in my life now, I'd be like, dude, cause, cause I, you know, I think when I was younger, I did have this really strong desire to live a life that was socially just, and I still do have that desire, but I probably had a bit more black and white thinking.

And I was like, anytime you get any spare dollar, you should be giving that away to the poor. Otherwise you're a total hypocrite. Like in my most black and white moments. And, you know, it's easy, as your life adjusts, and then you go, well, you know, some of those attitudes can, can be harmful, it's easy to go, well, a little bit more comfort's fine.

And I, I find it an interesting self reflection, like, I, you know, it's kind of the question of like, if I, everyone thinks if you won a million dollars, you know, you'd do things with very noble intentions. Oh yeah, I'd give some to charity, [00:23:00]go on a holiday, and then just keep living my life. But I think it's a real question that I, I sort of.

I'm not comparing myself too much to Cal, the main character, because it's easy for me to be judgmental of him. There's another part of me that wants to try and be someone who is self reflective enough to go, well, what if, what if things that I did, what if the Spiritual Misfits podcast suddenly became enormous?

And blew up. Maybe I would, you know, want a bit of a private jet action. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Can we get a spiritual misfits private jet, please? That would be amazing. That was a joke. I really don't want one. I think, yeah, it's this erosion of character. That's one of the most fascinating things in this TV show, because I don't.

Okay. Tell me if it's a spoiler and if, if it is cut this bit out, but. Where Cal has this crisis of faith, and I think that comes very early in the series. Yeah, I 

Will Small: don't think that's a spoiler, I think. It, and particularly, you know, as long as we're not [00:24:00] talking about things that spark the crisis of faith too much and things like that.

Yeah. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Hmm. I'm not going, yeah, I'm not going to give details about that, 

Will Small: but anybody who wants to, you can skip ahead like two minutes if you, yeah. Okay. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: I'll keep it short and sweet. I think there is, there are moments where like this character is so abrasive and horrible and unlikable in many ways. And then there's these moments where you can see this character go, I, I can't hear God anymore.

I feel like God has left me where you feel this, this real empathy for this character in agony. But then instead of it being this moment of. of real contemplation and regrouping, they go into crisis mode and they get like professional coaching because you've got to keep this machine going and you know, we don't have time for you to fall apart because we're going global.

And I think that was really telling us it's not about faith and it's not about building people's character. It's about. The [00:25:00] product we've produced and keeping the cogs turning. And I think that was a really horrifying moment where like the son Jed, who is, he's living this faith as best he can in the simple way.

And like you said, if that's how the original church started and now it is, we don't have even time to contemplate. Where your faith is at or what it's all about, you just have to keep going and not think because everything rests on your ability to keep convincing people that this is true. And that was awful.

What did you think of that? Like, just watching this, okay, come on, stop having a breakdown. We don't have time for this. 

Will Small: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I think that kind of touched on was a lot of the show, I think explores this like contrast between fakeness. And what's, you know, going on behind, behind it, like the authentic and the fake are kind of contrasted and it's interesting because in those moments, you do see that Cal, and this is kind of [00:26:00] what I said at the beginning, like there is a genuineness to his faith and I think that there could be some people that would look at mega church pastors And, and the most cynical view is that they're just purely, like, snake oil, kind of salesman.

You know, they don't even believe any of it, but they're just And I think some people would definitely look at a Brian Houston like that, where it's just like, this is, he's a great businessman. But I think what I appreciated in those moments, obviously it highlights that ridiculous kind of like constraint and restriction and The prioritization of keeping the machine going, which the machine is destroying human souls.

But I think that to me is this, again, this kind of similar to what I was saying before, like that if I want to try and see myself in these characters, even though they're there at a much more dramatic end of things, it's like you can see how people with genuine faith or genuine vulnerability [00:27:00] end up in kind of these self justifying patterns.

That do not produce a healthy soul or, or, or a good life of integrity. But it's not because he's trying, he's not necessarily trying actively to be deceptive. He's been, and this is, I find this fascinating, right? Cause I look at a lot of the damage, it's a different situation, but I look at what's happening in the New South Wales Baptist space, which has caused me a lot of pain.

I've talked about it a lot, but I'm like the people that are most actively driving wedges. I think it's because they're being true to their framework. I think they're acting out of a deep place of integrity, many of them to their beliefs. I just think their beliefs are really shitty. And I think that's true of Cal as well.

Now I probably have, I'm sure I have some shitty beliefs, but I do think we've got to like think twice when we're in systems that actively produce the [00:28:00] kind of belief structures and incentive structures. That mean there's really no other option, but for some of that greed and corruption to emerge, like the system creates it as much as it is chosen.

I don't know. What do you think about that? Yeah. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: I don't, I don't. Yeah. I agree with that, that there's something really redemptive in Cal, however, I don't think he is well intentioned. I think he's really aware of the damage he's doing and does it anyway. And I think it. Is all about keep propping up this facade, even though he knows he's not really believing it anymore.

And I think he's much more of a sinister character. I think you're just nicer than I am. I think he's actually has a lot to answer for. And I think the show tries to point that out that 

Will Small: he's having a genuine crisis of faith and I think he should be held to account. I think there's [00:29:00]definitely should be consequences for his actions.

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: But I think he knows what he's doing, but he refuses to acknowledge what he's doing. And I think the whole time his family is falling apart and he keeps pushing and pushing it and making dodgy calls. And cause there's a moment again, towards the end without giving spoilers where. You almost think he's taking account for what he has done and actually apologizing, but he doesn't, as soon as he gets to this point of vulnerability, you start shifting blame to people.

And I think because he's quite nasty and the whole thing is, he thinks he's a victim and everyone's out to get him. But when you see how he interacts with our other power brokers, like local politicians and You know, celebrities, he knows exactly what he's doing. And I think, yeah, what you were saying about this corruption of something that was quite innocent and well intentioned becoming something really sinister, it made me think of, you know, when we were talking about [00:30:00] Mars Hill and the rise and fall of Mars Hill, and I was thinking about the episodes that Dan Koch was doing on, You Have Permission With, what's his friend called again?

Tony Jones. Yeah, thank you. And there was something they said in one of their debriefing episodes that really stuck with me that you know, in Mars Hill, they kept talking about all the souls they were saving and like, yeah, we're really successful because we're saving souls and look how we're growing.

And they're like, well, with such a bastardized gospel, I'm paraphrasing them. What did they think they were saving people into? So these, these factors for success are no, no markers of success at all, because this they're saving them into something that is not Jesus. It's a very, Very distorted view of the gospel, and it's all about prosperity, and it's all about power, and it's all about self actualization, all of that, that, you know selfish oriented stuff.

And I think that's what we're seeing here, too. I don't [00:31:00] think it's well intentioned. I think it's about building numbers. I think it's about making money. It's about keeping the system going. And so, I think they're awfully aware of that. And even though I loved Cal's wife, what was her name? Abby. I think Rebecca Gibney was incredible as her and they were like, for most of the series, I was like, yeah, like.

What a tough job that is keeping him going. But then I started to realize she's absolutely aware of how things are working or do anything to keep this, this system propped up as well. And so then I came to the conclusion, they're all monsters. 

Will Small: I don't want to be misconstrued as defending them and 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: no, sorry, I wasn't, I wasn't implying you were either, but I think you just have, well, you're redeemable in people than maybe I am in this case.

Will Small: It's funny thinking about authenticity and how we, you know, we're performing often, right? Even if we're not necessarily on that level. And I was thinking about, like, [00:32:00] there's almost a layer of, like, for me there's a version of this conversation that is just, like, so cathartic because it's just absolutely tearing to shreds.

everything in that world. And then there's a part of me that does have in my mind, you know, when I get a little bit loose sometimes with some of my critiques of the world, you know, you think about how that comes back from people saying, Oh, you should be a bit more careful or, you know, that's a whole thing.

But it's interesting because I'm like probably partly wanting to lean a little bit more towards seeing what is positive in this show in terms of what, what is positive in terms of the characters and the church stuff. But I'm not, yeah, it's, that's just an interesting thing because I'm not quite sure what it is.

That I feel I need to sort of placate or, or defend in that. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Yeah. Are you a secret Christian apologist? Is that what's coming out of this 

Will Small: episode? Maybe. Okay. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Maybe. I think, well, we're back to like. [00:33:00] I became obsessed with this show because it felt really vindicating, like, yeah, show what shit's going down in this.

I want it exposed and Lance didn't want to watch it because he's like, we don't need any more like mud slinging. Everyone knows what Hillsong is. You know, we don't need to just keep like obsessing over the failures of people. Let's, let's kind of focus on what's good and positive and away from this shit show.

Is that what he expressed to you? I don't know if that's 

Will Small: just his own husband. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, now, we all love Lance. He's like, he's, he's the greatest. He's the greatest, but yeah, he expressed that, you know, he's, I guess he doesn't want people who aren't Christians to see Christians painted in this light.

Which is certainly something that I would have felt at many points in time. And I can understand that. I mean, I do think that the way Christians don't, don't do ourselves any favours in terms of public reputation. And I suppose what happens there, and what I think is happening [00:34:00] a little bit within me here, is I just know I am aware that it is so easy to look at the extreme versions, and this is not just about Christianity, but this is in lots of spaces, you look at the extreme version of something, and then you point your finger at it as something totally separate from yourself.

And I probably try to go, where, where is there like that, is there anything in me that could become that if it was. You know, if the, the trajectory and the stepping stones led me there, like, would I be that different? It's kind of a bit more of a deterministic view of things. But what, what I think with, with Cal and what you were saying before that I do think is, you know, I agree with you that there is like a, there is definitely a knowledge of, of having done a lot of wrong and continuing to actively do that and, and that is obviously a real problem.

[00:35:00] One of the things that I do think enables him to continue to do that, and perhaps him more than any of the other characters, Is kind of what you, you know, you mentioned he, he's good at shifting the blame, but it's that blame shifting combined with over spiritualizing every situation. And this is something that I think does, you know, rock up in lots of different church spaces where it's kind of like, you can explain every bad thing as you know, the act of the devil and then every good thing you can receive as a blessing.

And it's where you do have this system where. Oh, I have this private jet because God has shown favor to me and blessed me, not because I've exploited other people or because I've taken more than my fair share or because I'm rorting the tax system. This is a, this is a blessing. But then the other thing is, Oh, I've, I've done something that's ruining people's lives.

The devil, the [00:36:00] devil was there. The devil made me do it. The devil tempted me. Satan showed up. And that phenomenon is another, I guess that's an example of, I'm like, if you're in a system, even if you're worlds away from what we see in this drama, if you're in a system where blame is constantly shifted to spiritual forces of good and evil, it stops you from having to own the consequences of your actions.

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: My question though is, is that just a product of the culture they're in or is that a willful repudiation of responsibility? And I think for him, I'm like. He's, he's wielding that as, as a way of getting out of any responsibility. I don't think it's like, I have no other choice, but to think this because this is the culture I'm in.

And I think I see a lot of Christian culture doing that as a, yeah, a way to not have to take responsibility or take any criticisms on us. Like when we were saying you know, in the lead up to. The [00:37:00] reelection when Biden got voted in and all these Christian leaders going you know, I'm prophesying that Trump's going to be reelected.

And then this, this, oh, I hate when this happens because it's like, well, if your prophecy is correct, then you were right. And God has shown favor and, you know, you've been listening to God and if your prophecy is not right, then people weren't trusting God and the devil had power. Like, it's this self fulfilling thing, but I think it also means we can say whatever shit we want and there's no consequence.

And I think people know that. Like, it's not just 

Will Small: Yeah, I think you're right. I think, I think you're, you're like, I think what's interesting though is that I think some people do that as a tactic. To avoid looking bad or to avoid, you know, having to deal with the fact that their prophecy was wrong or whatever.

But if enough people are doing that, in a space, it becomes something that people then earnestly and genuinely take on. And with a lot of these things, right, it's like, [00:38:00] the complexity of we can't read another person's motives. But whether or not these things are done with ill motives or pure motives, they still have bad consequences.

And that's kind of where I see those moments in the show where you maybe have these possibility of somebody being still quite genuine. Whether or not they are in some ways is irrelevant because the the outcome is still, it creates a culture that again is, is, it's easy to shift the blame. It's easy to not take responsibility.

And I think with, you know. Again, this is probably part of this more sinister character, because I think I agree with you, but there's also this idea, and I think this is an idea that, you know, we should also watch out for if it shows up in any spiritual space we're a part of, but that if God forgives me, then suddenly we never have to talk about it [00:39:00] again.

Or there should be no consequences. It's this kind of forgiveness, you know, forgiveness erases responsibility. And I think that is a very dangerous idea. Hello, beautiful people. I love making this podcast, but the truth is. I don't want to just make a podcast. I want to build connections. I want to help create community and I want to make things that help people to navigate the tricky spaces of life, faith, doubt and being human.

This year we're working on a few new things to add to the Spiritual Misfits ecosystem. I look forward to sharing more soon, but first a huge word of thanks to everyone who makes spiritual misfits possible, the good folks at Meeting Ground Church. To other listeners who were given financially in the past or currently.

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Again, 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: love my husband, he's brilliant, but I don't think ignoring these stories or not making TV shows about these stories makes people think any better of Christians. Everyone knows. This kind of culture is out there, and it makes me much more impressed when we get to examine it and expose it. It's like when Jarrod McKenna and Danielle Strickland exposed the Bruxycavi behaviors.

And it's like a couple of years ago now, but you know, it's, they're like, we're literally going public on Instagram [00:41:00] because people are trying to hide this and we do not want this poison festering in Christianity because it does so much damage. We want to bring things out and expose it so that it doesn't spread.

They don't, it doesn't keep, you know, it doesn't get to keep happening. And I think even though, you know, this is a show for entertainment, it's very entertaining. It's, I don't like, I don't know if it's made by people who are Christians. I don't know, but I think it was a really, I found it quite cathartic watching it.

Cause I'm like, Oh, so my issues with Christianity aren't just in my head. They're, they're witnessed in other spaces. It's good to kind of let that. The wound see the air. That's a gross metaphor. I liked it for that. And I, I don't, I don't know. People are aware that Christianity has failed many people in many ways since time began.

So I don't think that this show is doing any damage, but Lance, Lance is also someone that can [00:42:00] not throw it. Like we have many arguments in our marriage where I will be like, that's it, the entire movement of Hillsong and anything to do with it is completely dead to me. And he's like, yeah. Most of it is, but does it mean you can't ever listen to a song by it again?

Or does it mean that any of what they ever have to say is completely wrong. And I still don't know how to ever acknowledge that maybe there are some good things to be found to you, whereas he's much better at sitting with super toxic, but maybe don't throw the entire thing out. And I think that's why he had that approach to it.

Whereas I'm like. Tell me about how you and Sam unpacked it too and why she chose not to keep 

Will Small: watching it. Well, it's interesting, like for any moments in this conversation where I've come across as like almost defending Cal. The reason Sam didn't want to watch it is because she has a pretty strong narcissist meter.

Now, he's obviously, he's obviously a narcissist, but Sam is somebody who yeah. And again, not like not giving out [00:43:00] psychological profiling. But just the sense of narcissistic behavior or tendencies, which we can all display at times, but some people, you know to a higher and, and more dangerous, I guess, frequency that's something that she's a bit more attuned to and so she's like, I don't want to watch, this is going to be, this is not going to be good for me.

Which is interesting because I think that's. Almost a separate issue, but also this question of a bit of a chicken and an egg situation. Do, do churches like this breed narcissistic personalities or do people with, you know, narcissistic leaning personalities end up in these places because they're, it's a place where they will thrive?

It's kind of like, is that, and it's probably a bit of both. But I think if we were just, and certainly that comes up on the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast, but so many of these [00:44:00] churches, there is this large organizational systemic thing that I have a lot of problems with, right? Like, I actually, I'll be very happy to say, like, the Hillsong model of church, like the mega church, I just don't really think mega churches should exist.

I am not, I can see that good things can come out of those spaces. Certainly good people are in those spaces. That's like always true of anything, but as an actual project, I would personally find it very difficult to, to defend. You know, creating mega churches, if you were kind of starting from, you know, scratch.

Now we live in a complicated world where these things, they do exist. And so if some people are in them and it's bringing them life, like, that's fine. I'm not going to try and talk you out of it. But personally, I'm like, I just struggle with the whole organizational. However, 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: yeah, well, cause I guess it's got such potential for danger, which we see again in this show.

Yeah. 

Will Small: And that's it. Yeah. It's like it, it makes [00:45:00] it easy for bad actors to act badly. And there's enough bad actors in the world that we don't need more spaces that are going to make it easy for them to act badly. And I think, bless his heart, Lance probably is a bit more optimistic about the possibility of human nature to, to not have people ending up in those positions and taking advantage of them.

But I'm sort of like. I don't know, like, and I want to say, like, one thing I've been thinking this week, which is unrelated, but maybe it's, it's worth chiming in here. One of my favorite human beings on planet Earth right now is Macklemore. I don't know if you are a fan of Macklemore. I've been 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: listening to him a lot this week.

I do love Macklemore and weirdly he's been high on my playlist. Now, 

Will Small: this dude, for everything I've said that critiques kind of the systems of, of wealth and incentive structures that allow people like Cal to, to live in these incredible properties. [00:46:00] Macklemore, dude's going to have some cash, right?

He's had a very successful career. He's made a lot of excellent music that a lot of people listen to. Now, he has also used his platform to make music about gay marriage, to make music about the environment, to make music about addiction, to be very honest with his own struggle with addiction, with alcoholism, with recovery.

He recently did an incredible speech, if you go look on his Instagram there's a, there's a speech he gave about Palestine you know, at a recent concert while also making it very clear that freedom for Palestine is about freedom and love for Jewish people. It was incredible, but I'm just like, this is proof that somebody can be.

incredibly successful and a good human being and have a moral backbone and have courage and conviction and be the real deal. Now he's not perfect. I'm not saying he's perfect, but I'm like, I think it's just like there, there is the possibility that [00:47:00] celebrity, I think 99 out of a hundred times celebrity leads to a lot of, a lot of bad stuff.

But it's, it is inspiring when you see somebody. At that level, who is actually clearly a morally and ethically driven person of integrity. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: And I guess he's also not asking people to meet multiple times a week and donate money to his cause and tell them how to get to eternal freedom. And, you know, so I think if he started building structures around his personality, then we get worried too.

Yes. 

Will Small: That's true, and I think that's, that's probably an interesting distinction, like that initial question I have around, how can a, how can we live in a world where a pastor can live in a multi million dollar beachfront property in Sydney I don't have, I don't necessarily have the same issue with anybody who has been successful in business.

I still, I still am like a bit of a socialist and [00:48:00] I don't, I do think that, you know, like there shouldn't be billionaires, you know, have you seen that, that meme about like when people reach a billion dollars, they should just get something that says you win capitalism and then, you know, get a trophy and they have to give all their money away because, because it's endless because I know that the, you know, there is.

As soon as you don't put some sort of cap on it, then there will always be a desire for increase. But having said all of that I, I do think I view it differently when it's somebody who is claiming to be spending their life you know, doing work that is about bringing about flourishing for all.

You know, following this first century rabbi who, you know, was basically homeless and who, yeah, told rich people to give all their money away. Like, it's just very hard to reconcile that as a, as a job with that level of wealth. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: And who did have it all and actively chose to give it up to come into a life of humility so that [00:49:00] he could resonate with humanity.

So I think. This is the thing, right? This representation of Christianity is very far removed from the Gospels and that, I struggle with that in whatever form it looks like in, in the modern church, just what Bible are we reading? And then that opens up a really complex can of worms that we're all interpreting the Bible in different ways.

But when Jesus has set such a very clear example of. What his focus is on and what his values are, and he gets very angry at the people who are accumulating wealth and privilege and power and prestige because he cares more about the downtrodden than the overlooked, then I'm like, how can you justify these structures you've built and say it's all as a glorification of Jesus?

I just think this show really shows that hypocrisy, especially when you see what Jed's trying to do and how much that. affronts his family [00:50:00] because they don't like that he's doing something outside of, of the church walls. And they don't like that. It's not something that goes with what the family wants them to do.

And that's just horrifying. Right. I think that's the biggest example of the disconnect between gospel and 

Will Small: culture. Well, I love, I love with Jed, like. And I think it's something I've come to value more over the years is he's just, he's committed to doing a little bit of good in one particular local area with the people that he has the capacity to help in a kind of week in, week out, unsexy way.

And he doesn't have aspirations to franchise it or to make it bigger or to, he doesn't have like a savior complex. Around trying to save the world, and I just think that even really well intentioned and beautiful churches and, and pastors and people can [00:51:00] easily get swept up into that, again, very kind of capitalistic thinking around the main metric is always growth.

Like the main thing, I'm a small business owner and I think about this a lot because there's like this sort of pressure that's just in the air that your business isn't successful unless it is growing, unless it is bringing more people on, unless it is looking at more locations or revenue streams and, and I really dislike all of that.

Because often I'm just like, well, if I could just get this thing to a point where it kind of keeps going and just pays the bills that I have, that does feel like winning to me. Why is that not winning? And I'm not saying that growth in and of itself is bad, but just sort of this unquestioned, like, fetishization we have with growth is what leads you to destroying a planet.

It, it, it, it, Has no thought for sustainability. So I love that Jed is in there. And I think that's another, like, I don't think the [00:52:00] makers of the show are Christians or that they're trying to be apologists for Christianity in any way. But I actually liked that they showed a contrasting interpretation.

And, and just that, that adds to the complexity of this part of what's complicated about Christianity. It's like monopoly. It's like who gets to say what Christianity actually is. And I'm hesitant about even playing that game of like, we've got the right Christianity and all these other people have it wrong, because that is obviously obviously claiming another level of authority, that is exactly what I'm criticising but I do think, you know, Christianity is complicated and, and as I've said before, like there are Christianities, there isn't just one monolithic thing.

So I like that in the show there's even a contrast between very different interpretations of what it means to be Christian. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Yeah, and maybe then any kind of fear that the show is just wanting to bash church and bash Christianity [00:53:00] is undermined by Jed's narrative and what Jed is trying to do and how clearly that is driven by his faith.

I really like that that's put in there as this counterpoint to the commercialism and the, the capitalism of U Star. And there's this scene that is really telling where U Star people try to come and I think I think it's really important for people to see what she's doing and be part of it. And they're taking all these selfies with homeless people because they cannot do something good without it being this promotion opportunity or this like, look how good we are at this virtue signaling of, of the actions.

And I think here Jed is just simply doing what. compels him to be loving and caring and the culture of the church he's come from is all about look how good we are, look what we're doing. And it leads me into, I know, you know, know, we're talking about this for a long time, but something else that really I found quite confronting in this series was the, there's two other characters in [00:54:00] the series.

That's one is a politician who I think is supposed to be like a Scott Morrison esque character. And then the other one is. Like this, this rat bag, pop star, rapper, whoever he is, who I think is supposed to be a Justin Bieber esque figure. Yeah, and just this, like. The optics of connections with these people and, you know, the pop star is a dropkick and everything they do to try and make it look like nowhere, saving him is coming good and how, how disastrous that is and they're trying to speak into local politics.

I'm not sure. Why I was connecting that into what I was saying before, but what are your thoughts about those little narratives? Well, 

Will Small: I'm glad you brought those up. Definitely. The politics one is one I wanted to talk about because I think it's a really relevant storyline for the Australian church to be reflecting on.

But I think both of those, right, they're about un, [00:55:00] like, yeah, they're about a level of influence. That is disproportionate and kind of wielding these levers of cultural celebrity and political power to be able to, again, continue to build your empire, which is probably at the end of the day, like why I do have such an issue with the kind of Hillsong model is it naturally leads to empire building.

And I feel like that's again, temptation, like everyone's trying to build an empire. Everyone's doing the selfie thing with everyone. That's not just a church thing, but that to me is one of the things that I see Jesus fundamentally diagnoses as a problem is our love of empire. And so much of what I see as the, you know, the Sermon on the Mount kind of teaching is to be those who actively resist empire and getting in bed with empire.

But the politics piece I found super interesting, essentially. You know, they they pay for the [00:56:00] campaign for this politician, they really help him to get elected because there is a charity bill coming through the Australian Parliament in the show that is going to take away some of the tax exemptions that churches get.

And so they have to do everything they can to make sure that they've got their inside inside politician to protect. Yeah. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: And just the effort that they go to, to try and lock down their kingdom. It's exhausting. And yeah, the, the maneuvering and the agenda, I think that's what we start to see more of as the show progresses.

This under underworld happening with the church of. You know, you owe us, politician, because we paid for your campaign and, and pop star, you're doing some dodgy things, but make sure that that doesn't seem dodgy because we don't want it to harm the reputation of the church as this sanctifying place that, you know, he's, he's being [00:57:00] saved and baptized and look like, look what we can do for people's lives and how cool we are because we're connected with him.

It's just really interesting how they represent this. Image, obsession and cultivation which I think had really strong resonances with what we've seen in, in our real life with both of those storylines. I think we haven't spoken about the other siblings. I found all of their stories really compelling.

There's Izzy, who was the worship leader. And I think the worship was, Oh, I I've just been reading a bit into how manipulative worship can be if we're not careful. And I saw all of that in this show, just like play some really moving chords and I don't know, even just, they get a character up to be singing with them as a way to kind of, incorporate them into the cult.

I just see all of that movement as a way of propagating culture. And then there's an adopted [00:58:00] child and that's a really sad story. It's just I think that's one of the most profound things that this show is just. For all of the energy going into keeping this, this empire going. And I think that's the biggest term for it.

It's an empire and and Cal is the king who needs to keep it going at all costs. And then you see the damage that is done to the people that he should love and care for the most. Is really it's really sobering and really sad. Yeah, and they're all not very nice 

Will Small: Yeah, it definitely I recommend if people are interested in watching it feel like you know, it's not gonna bring out too much stuff That's too close to home Yeah, it's I think it was really good storytelling.

The one other final note I wanted to touch on before we wrap up is, I don't know if you listened to my chat with Sarah McCammon the other week the NPR journalist from the States. About the ex vangelicals. [00:59:00] I haven't yet, but it's on think you'll find it interesting. But one of the things I came out of that conversation really wanting to think a bit more about, because it was a great conversation and I loved her book, but it obviously was very much narrating the American experience, which we get we certainly get elements of over here, but I've been thinking about, like, what is the Australian Evangelical experience and what are the kind of unique nuances of being here.

And I was just thinking about how we receive so much influence from America in terms of you know, Christian music and culture and all of that. But it's quite profound that as far as the global Evangelical world goes Hillsong is our major export and it really is like one of those things where it's it's a little bit [01:00:00] odd that it happened That way but little old, you know Hillsong in Sydney has become a worldwide influence in terms of worship and make a church culture And I was just, I was just thinking about how it's fascinating that so often, I guess, a lot of our conversations around yeah, evangelicalism and these big kind of Christian issues are us talking about stuff we've received from overseas, but this is partly a story about what we've exported overseas.

And I just think that is very, like, there could be people in other countries talking about. You know, what, what Hillsong has meant to them as something that came from here to over there. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Yeah. And there's another episode. I think we also need to come to terms with the fact we exported Ken Ham and what that's done to evangelicalism.

We 

Will Small: have done some bad stuff. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: We have. I'm sorry world. If you're listening and [01:01:00] you're not from Australia, they do not speak for all of us. Like that's just 

Will Small: wild, isn't it? I mean, maybe, maybe Ken Ham was like, he just knew. That his kind of extreme message would only be successful somewhere like the States.

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Absolutely. I love that, like, even just that, the Christianity is a broad expression of faith, isn't it? That we can have the Ken Ham's and the Brian Houston's and everything in between and on the sides. 

Will Small: Yuck. Why are we still interested in it, Anna? I'd like 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: to not fit with any of that. I know. Thank goodness we can be misfits, hey, and find our own little space where we're hopefully asking big questions so we're not doing too much damage.

Hopefully. Hopefully. 

Will Small: Mm. If we do do any damage, it's the Devil's fault , 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: and if we don't, then we get a private jet. 

Will Small: That's good. Well, thank you my friend. Any final, any final [01:02:00] thought you wanna leave with the listeners as we wrap out this one? 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: No. It was a good show. I liked it. I would like a second season. I'd like to debrief that. I think more thoughts will come up as I process that show more. And I'd love to hear from people on the Facebook group. What they thought of it, especially people who have gone through the Hillsong Church or college or whatever.

Cause I think, yeah, we were talking as relative outsiders. I can't imagine what that experience of watching this show would be like if you'd lived it. So please come and chat to us in our group. It'd be fascinating. Yep. 

Will Small: Agree. And yeah, love to hear what, what people thought about the Will and Hannah respond to a cultural artifact.

Yes. 

Hannah Macauley-Gierhart: Make a cup of tea and join us. It'll 

Will Small: be fun. Sounds good. All right. Bye everybody. Bye friends. Spiritual Misfits podcast is brought to you by Meeting Ground, a church for the misfits. [01:03:00] We know we are only one small and humble faith community, but we're making this work in the hope that we can encourage and empower other people in similar spaces.

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