Pub Theology (with Carlynne Nunn) on shame and disappointment

We're adding a twist to our beloved Pub Theology episodes: bring a friend - who brings the topic. This time, Will has brought Carlynne Nunn. And Carlynne has brought shame and disappointment. Great topics for a lively ol' pub chat! Pour a drink of your choosing and join us for a rich and wide conversation about the dark and uncomfy things in life and faith. 

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Transcript

Will Small: [00:00:00] That, that sound of a can opening is the beautiful sound of the beginning of another Pub Theology episode. But this time, it is with, I won't say a twist, I will say an evolution of the format that I'm excited to bring about. You know, you go to the pub, you bring some friends. And so tonight is the first night of, when we do a pub theology episode, Will, Mitch or Hannah has to bring a friend.

Sadly, Hannah is not with us. We, we send our love to you, Hannah. Carlynne is not here to replace you. We have the fourth chair, or we have two spare chairs, spare chair for Jesus and spare chair for Hannah, who's with us in spirit. Do you guys ever do that in youth group or whatever? 

Mitch Forbes: For our, for our Jewish brothers and sisters, we have Elijah, he said, do they never sleep for Elijah or something?

But I 

Will Small: have brought a friend to the pub tonight a friend who's been on the podcast before and we've been talking about, about getting Carlynne Nunn back on the [00:01:00] pod quite some time. We made it happen. Carlynne, welcome to the pub slash pod. 

Carlynne Nunn: Thank you. Very good to be here. I also have just remembered that it is indeed called pub theology.

I've prepared myself a nice cup of tea, which is not what I would order at a pub, but I hope that that's okay. It is okay. I'm allowed to say. 

Will Small: You have a tea. I, where this will come out after Lent, but currently it is during the season of Lent. And I am not drinking alcohol during Lent. So no shame, Mitch. No shame, man.

But, 

Mitch Forbes: I am the only one drinking at the pub. What have you got? What kind of non profit is this? I am actually, I'm drinking it inside this cool Yeti cooler that my cousin got me. He's a tradie. Shout out to Jono Forbes. He got it, he got it for me for Christmas. It's really good. It's like an insulated stubby cooler.

And yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's got this little rubber lid that you put on it, and then, yeah, it's a Danny's Wedge [00:02:00] TPA by the good folks at Good Folk. Tea? What's the tea? Creative way to, creative way to, triple? Triple? Pale ale? Tropical, I imagine. Imagine tropical. No, it's not triple alcohol. I have had a couple of pre drinks before I came to the pub though.

So, who knows where this might go? 

Carlynne Nunn: I feel like I should run and grab a bottle of whiskey or something. Don't. Don't do it. Don't do it. No, I absolutely won't do it. 

Will Small: Everyone's welcome, whether you're drinking water, tea, TPA you know, whatever. So, Carlynne Nunn, what do the good people need to know about you, our, our friend at the pub tonight?

What's what's been happening in your world? 

Carlynne Nunn: Well I've been rewatching some Taskmaster. That's been fun. In my world I have recently got a new placement in the Uniting Church where I am the I am the, I am a minister of the word. One of many yeah, I've been ordained now for only about five [00:03:00] years and about to start a new placement theoretically in the next couple of months where I'll, and I'll be moving to.

the coast to Warrnambool and just, you know, fishing and surfing and Being smug. I probably won't. I'll do one of those things and it won't be fishing or surfing. I, I plan to be smug. Yeah, generally. I love it. Living the dream. I love it. I wish I could do those other things. I, this, this reminds me of when I was on that, that episode that I was on the panel that was recorded live.

Mitch Forbes: I remember that. Yeah. 

Carlynne Nunn: Now that you say it, yeah. I was very different to the other guests, I feel, because what, what really brought it home to me and this, you reminded me when you said, what do people need to know about you? And I'm always, my head goes blank and I'm like, I don't, I don't know. Like I'm my, I've got plantar fasciitis at the moment.

Is that interesting? 

Mitch Forbes: That is, that is interesting because that's like, 

Carlynne Nunn: [00:04:00] but man, my 

Mitch Forbes: dad had that like last Christmas or something. Yeah. Trying to walk around with him. It's really hard. Walking? Because 

Carlynne Nunn: he could barely walk, yeah. Yeah, and I think it's given me associated heel spurs. Which basically means I'm revolving into my dinosaur self.

And growing out, like, extra little bones in my heels of all places. Anyway Wowzers. But at this, at the live one, So you, you asked us all for little introductions, remember? And, and like, Sally's was obviously like, Sally is the wonderful minister at And she has done a lot of work about, blah, blah, blah.

Wills was the same. He's done a lot of work about, you know, nerd things. Was the other guy Greg? Greg. Yes. Greg. Yeah. He was the only one I didn't, I wasn't personally acquainted with. And then mine was, because you asked me for an introduction, I was like, I don't know, Carlynne likes drinking coffee and she's got a dog and she likes horror films.

And it was like, just all super boring, like, normal personal stuff, because I don't have, like, I didn't have a niche. Everyone else had, like, an area. [00:05:00]

Mitch Forbes: That's better. If you're saying to me, which person do I want to bring to the pub after that list, Carlynne? No shame, to the other folks who, I know one of them, Will, great guy.

Great name. I've not met Sally yet. Sally 

Carlynne Nunn: is good in a pub, by the way. Yeah, she's good in a 

Mitch Forbes: pub. She's good at a pub. Yeah. Oh, cool. They're 

Will Small: probably all good at a pub, but, but Oh, absolutely. But you, you, you know, I look at 

Mitch Forbes: the reaction, it says horror films and stuff that's like, oh man, I'm into that. Well, I wanna talk to someone like that.

Will Small: We came alive when you talked about plant of fascia artists. So Yeah, obviously, like that's, oh my god. Yeah. That's old people's juicy stuff. But as part of this new format of Bring a friend to the pub. It's, it's bring a friend to the pub who brings something to chat about. So you are an interesting person.

You undersell yourself. You do have thoughts. You have feelings. Oh, 

Carlynne Nunn: I know. I definitely have thoughts. So I'm a generalist though, which is fine with me. I'm happy to be a generalist. Yeah. Yeah. Generalists 

Will Small: are great. I feel like you could be a comedian. I'm just, I'm just putting it out there. I just feel like you've got standup [00:06:00] vibes and you know, I mean, being a pastor or minister sometimes is kind of like.

You can try that material out. You've got like a regular crowd. 

Carlynne Nunn: Well, you got a regular crowd of lovely polite church people, which is not necessarily the road to stand up comedy success, but I'll take that. 

Mitch Forbes: There is at least two celebrity pastors who, who, like, start, I don't know if they started, but at least studied stand up comedy to be better at, like, talking.

Well, I mean, not to be better, but that was like a road into it. So I'm pretty sure Nadia Boltz Weber. I was gonna say! Nadia, if you, if you're hearing, if you're listening in the pod you should come on. Also, did you? I'm pretty sure! I'm pretty sure that was And the other one was Mark Driscoll, which is terrible, but but he, he did also do a stand up comedy thing.

Oh, it's pretty gross and regressive, but that was his, that was 

Will Small: his thing. I mean, that sentence was really an emotional journey for me, because you said celebrity pastors, and I'm like, disgusting. You said Nadia Bates Weber, and I'm like, amazing. Then you said Mark Driscoll, and I'm like, back [00:07:00] to disgusting.

Mitch Forbes: Wow, yeah, I didn't think about that. I did say Nadia first because I thought you probably wouldn't listen to the next name after I said 

Carlynne Nunn: it. It's like, we just had our laptops, we're done. 

Will Small: We snuck in the back. So, so Carlynne, you've brought, you've brought some themes for us to discuss. I'm just going to let you set this up however you want.

Carlynne Nunn: So one is plantar fasciitis. No, it's not. Wow. 

Mitch Forbes: I was going to say. That 

Carlynne Nunn: is cool. Well, I'm going to ask a sort of a facetious question to start with. And then we can go from there, which is, does Jesus take away our shame?

Perhaps does Jesus really take away our shame? Because I believe that when I was younger, I was taught that Jesus is supposed to do that.

So do you think that he's done that? Are you like shameless? Son's shame? I'm 

Will Small: pretty shameless. 

Carlynne Nunn: [00:08:00] Same actually. Well, no, that's part of the point. I'm 

Will Small: not, but yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting question. Cause. You know, anytime you get into these, like, what does Jesus offer us questions, there is like this often this like unrealized in time and space aspect of, you know, Jesus gives us peace and salvation and wholeness and freedom from shame.

And a lot of it is like contingent upon a future where those things are fully true. Where right now you're often like, oh yeah, yeah, I believe that Jesus brings those things, but like, you know what I mean, like, it's like you feel like you get snippets of them, and I'm like, like, yes, Jesus brings me a sense of peace and comfort, but are there times when I feel like I do not have a sense of peace and comfort?

Absolutely. 

Carlynne Nunn: Absolutely. 

Mitch Forbes: Yeah. So you mean like take it away completely or like offer you a path through it or give you some like nice, you know, sentiments when you feel [00:09:00] it or like, yeah, how totalizing and complete is Jesus takes away our shame, I guess. Well, exactly. 

Carlynne Nunn: I think that's 

Mitch Forbes: why. And is that the goal?

Like, is that, is that, is that the 

Carlynne Nunn: goal? Yeah. Well, because like, I think we're taught when I was younger, I, the theology that I subscribe to by virtue of just being raised in a Christian household. Yeah. Like Jesus takes away the phrases often takes away your sin. And I think that sin and shame are often coupled up like Jesus takes away your shame as well.

But yeah, I guess it's up to us to kind of dig into what that means. So I don't. That was just kind of a, almost like a light way of entering into the conversation. 

Mitch Forbes: I can't, I can't wait to hear the heavy. 

Carlynne Nunn: Cause what I want to talk about is shame and disappointment and also mental illness.

Will Small: These are banging topics to bring to the park. We can switch back to 

Carlynne Nunn: my feet if you want. [00:10:00]

Mitch Forbes: I felt slightly more comfortable with plantar fasciitis to be 

Carlynne Nunn: honest. 

Will Small: There is no, there's no shame except for the shame in the topics that you brought to mind. No, no, no. You feel me? No shame? Except there is, Except for 

Carlynne Nunn: the literal shame that's present.

Yeah. 

Will Small: Yeah. I'm interested, Carlynne, in what, what sparked this question for you. When did this question land in your head? Did it land in your head out of a sense of disappointment with some of those childhood promises or beliefs, or? No. 

Carlynne Nunn: I mean, the faith that I carried around or was a part of when I was younger has obviously been disassembled and reassembled a few times since then.

And so I don't think of things, so it felt like that, that question springs to me, it seems to spring from a sort of a fairly black and white, fairly simplistic, certain sort of faith, which is not really my home anymore. Yeah, but I [00:11:00] think it does have some interest to us still, which we can kind of circle back to that, like, yeah, what does, what is Jesus's relationship to our shame? Or. Yeah, do we think that Jesus has any bearing on our anything that any shame that we might have? But the reason I wanted to talk about these this collection of really uplifting words is because Not for the past couple of months generally, but for the last few years I've been thinking a lot about particularly the last maybe two years thinking a lot about Disappointment and definitely a lot about shame and Disappointment by virtue of having, having a light menti B myself, thinking about mental unwellness.

So yeah, it's just, just cause I, I guess I'm interested in the question of like, what do you do with disappointment? Like, and why can't we talk [00:12:00] about the things that we feel shame about and what do we do with it when we're, Carrying around, rightly or wrongly and often wrongly, I think shame that we can't seem to shake and what good news is there for us.

Perhaps in our story of faith that says anything about either disappointment or shame. Yeah. 

Will Small: Yeah. That's a good, it's a good setup. I, I appreciate you taking us, taking us into these waters. And I remember a brief conversation we had, I mean, we've like, we've kind of been messaging in the lead up to this for like, I don't know, it feels like three years, six years, but, but in some of those messages we did talk about, and I think you talked a little bit about this on the Melbourne panel.

But, but disappointment, you know, I suppose that like, there's like, often within Christianity, maybe this comes from other things outside of Christianity that get infused with it, but just kind of like [00:13:00] this, like there's a way to win this thing. Like there is a way to be winning at life, there's a way to be winning at work, there's a way to be winning spirituality.

Life is more ordinary than that and maybe it feels like you're losing, but maybe it just feels like you're kind of out of the game in a sense, you know, you're just sort of You got plantar fasciitis, and you're like, I can't even run the race anymore. What does Christianity, what does faith have to offer like that?

Plantar fasciitis 

Mitch Forbes: is a metaphor for not being happy in the race of life. I love it. I love it. Well set 

Carlynne Nunn: up. Spending so much money on special insoles for your shoes.

Will Small: What does this bring to mind for you Mitchell?

Mitch Forbes: Yeah, I mean, I think. Yeah, just to, what you were saying Will yeah, what, like, on the kind of idea of winning and what it looks like to be, to be winning. [00:14:00] Yeah, I mean, I think there's far less people winning than what you think. So, I think people, people give a, people give a pretty good picture, you know.

I mean, I think in real life, it's not just on like social media or whatever, they give you a pretty good picture of their life as if they're winning some kind of game and getting ahead and getting, you know. Being successful or whatever and not struggling with disappointments. But I mean, the more I actually, I think whenever you actually sit with someone in a pub, maybe, and have a drink with them, you start to realize there's very few people who feel like they're winning.

I mean, I'm sure there's some who genuinely are and feel like it, but most people I think are just constantly dealing with whatever frustration or disappointment, or, you know, to use the language of shame calm, like people, like everyone's just kind of carrying around that kind of stuff. I think it doesn't matter where you, where you fit.

So it's an interesting question, yeah, what do you do with disappointment when it is just ubiquitous, right? Like life is, like, just part of life is being disappointed. And I think the other question I had is, are we talking about, like, disappointment with How [00:15:00] things have turned out or disappointment with yourself.

And yeah, I was kind of circling around those kinds of ideas. So, cause I think it's one thing to be disappointed in a set of scenarios that you look around and you go, look, so much of that was out of my control. And I ended up in this spot and I feel really disappointed about where it's like where this these kind of roads have led Me, but I'm just a small part of that.

Like, you know, I made maybe I made some decisions Maybe they weren't great Maybe they were I could have done better but I was working I was doing the best that I could with like all the stuff that I was given and now I'm Disappointed in the outcome because it wasn't quite what I anticipated But then there's that other feeling of like i'm so disappointed in myself because I fucked up You know, I really I really screwed this one over.

I could have done so much better, you know that was just thoughts in front of me on my head. And that's, Hey, that's my first like genuine swear word on the pod. I think I've voted people 

Carlynne Nunn: before. I'm 

Mitch Forbes: growing, 

Will Small: I'm growing. Yeah. Pretty sure I've, I've, I've sensed it or cut them out maybe back to do with previous employment.[00:16:00]

Mitch Forbes: Oh, maybe. Yeah. Maybe when I couldn't do it anymore. Yeah. We were before. Yeah. Yeah. That was a bit of a ramble, but did you, was there stuff worth digging into? Yeah. Yeah. 

Carlynne Nunn: Like I think. Well, cause both of them I think could be boiled down to just this notion of like, there was a notion of how things will be.

There was a hope, and that hope was dashed, whether that hope is something that's outside of your control or inside of your control. But the second one, perhaps leads more directly to Shane, like it's a funnel down to Shane, right? If you think, I hope that I would be better than this in some way, or react differently, or be more of something.

And then, I've fucked up. That seems to me like I'm disappointed in myself. That's like almost straight in, like the Venn diagram. That leads 

Mitch Forbes: directly to the, yeah, those feelings. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm, 

Carlynne Nunn: I feel ashamed because I should have been better than this. I'm [00:17:00]

Mitch Forbes: vaguely remembering a, I can't remember if it was like Zizek.

I don't know if he has listened to Slavoj Zizek at all, but he's so, so good to listen to, but it might've been, might've been him or someone else was like doing this piece on guilt and shame and the difference between the two and. And I, I jump, I mean, I'm not a, I'm not a complete, like, I'm just gonna be honest, I'm not a complete shame hater.

I know that, like, I know that makes people uncomfortable, I'm sorry, if I never get Well, some people are really shame haters, and I'll explain, like, maybe in this, maybe in this, In this explanation, we'll catch a drift of it, right? So, people would say that shame is kind of a useless emotion because it comes externally.

Where guilt is a very different thing. Because it tends to be kind of an internal thing. So it's something, like, but then I might be mixing this up. I might have that exactly the wrong way around. Because I listened to it once on a pod. But I'm pretty sure it was that. It was like, shame is this, is the external pressure from the world around you.

Like, telling you that you've you know, that, that, that you haven't, you know, lived according to success or winning or whatever language you want to use. You know, you've screwed it up, [00:18:00] whatever. So that's the external kind of thing on top of you. And it tends to paralyze you. Whereas like, I think it's guilt and will, you can jump in.

I feel like, you know, this better than me, probably guilt is like when it this is burped mid sentence and again It's actually more useful in the sense that it originates within you, and it's you deciding that you need to make a change in your life. Is this tracking with anyone? Well, 

Will Small: I've heard the distinction between, like, guilt is about your actions.

Often, you're guilty of doing something bad. No, no, guilt, guilt's a good one because it's, well, 

Carlynne Nunn: it's It's not, I don't think that good or bad, like they're both, they're both all, right? Like, I think guilt can be deeply unhelpful. Yeah, 

Will Small: yeah, sure, sure, sure. But guilt, but guilt can, guilt can lead to sometimes people are genuinely guilty and reflecting on that guilt is an important thing to do.

Shame is, is less about the thing that I did was not the great [00:19:00] thing to do, but I am a piece of shit. And I feel like, you know, a lot of, a lot of the theology that we have critiqued a lot on the pod, a lot of the kind of Calvinist theology is so deeply shame based because your God's love for you is only ever filtered through shame.

God tolerating you because even at your very best you're a filthy rag. Yes. Not that you're like a beautiful creation that sometimes, you know, does some filthy rag vandalism around the place or I don't know how to, you know, but, but you, you 

Mitch Forbes: are trash. So that's, yeah, that's interesting. Cause I probably went more to, and even in my description, right.

I meant, I went more to shame being like an external like thing. Right. So it's like, it's. The collective group has like a particular picture. And, I think but I don't know whether that's actually, I mean I don't know any of this stuff, I'm just making it up. Or maybe different cultures, like in an honour and shame culture.

Honour and shame cultures, yeah, it's like the collective norm [00:20:00] and you're kind of stepping outside of it. And I do think there's a place, like there's a sense in which like it's good to have some like societal norms that like we don't do this particular thing. Like I could name some really bad examples.

Some really gross examples, but I don't like saying them out loud. But yeah, there are some things where I'm like, as a society, we probably shouldn't do that. Like we shouldn't murder kids. Even if like everyone wanted to, like, that should be like a shameful thing to do, you know, like, or, or whatever. At the very 

Carlynne Nunn: least shameful.

Probably more than shameful. No, 

Mitch Forbes: and criminal. I'm a criminal. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. Evil. No, no, exactly. Right. So there are some things that just are like, as a society, 

Carlynne Nunn: right. I might, people might shame me for it. 

Mitch Forbes: Strong motivation. Yeah, sure. Sure. 

Carlynne Nunn: But you know what I'm talking about? I do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So I hadn't thought about it in those terms, but I, but, but for me, Yeah. Shame, I think is a deeply personal thing as well for many people. Is Brene Brown noted shame researcher joining us tonight? Cause she should [00:21:00] Renee, if you're listening come and 

Mitch Forbes: join the pod. We'd love to have you on. We try and invite out to every celebrity that we know.

Carlynne Nunn: If Michelle Obama is listening 

Will Small: they're all listening. They're all always 

Carlynne Nunn: listening. Yeah. Let's just, it's safe just to assume that they're all here with us. Yeah, I can't remember what Brené, like, Brené says stuff about, like, what you just said, Will, the like, the guilt being different from shame because it's about, kind of, like, what it makes you feel about yourself.

So, both might stem from something that you rightfully feel badly about, because, say, you treated someone badly. You feel, you go, Oh, actually, I feel a bit of guilt. And then later on you go, you're, but then later on you're like, God, I'm a piece of shit. And even though you might've learned from that and changed, but you still maybe carry that shame of like, I did that thing that one time.

And that's where it can be obviously a bit unhelpful. And you also do have some shame that comes from, yeah, I have this notion of like the kind of person that I'm going to be. There's, so [00:22:00] for women, and probably men, but women is more, you know, my experience. There's a lot of shame around bodies and the different types of bodies that you have and not looking a certain way, you get older, perhaps you have a baby and you don't lose your baby weight, and then there's a shame associated with the fact that you've quote unquote lost your body, pre baby body.

There's shame about, you know, health diagnoses, there's shame about. Like, you know, people who are chronically ill and can't work full time might feel ashamed because they feel like they're a normal person supposed to behave a certain way. And yeah, then the, then the stupid shit that you just sort of put on yourself, like I should just be better at this.

I shouldn't fail. Well, we can also talk about failure. I love talking about failure. Yeah. 

Will Small: What, what I like about all of this is this kind of getting what I was saying with like the winning. I just feel like. Like, Christianity, like, can be presented as a very triumphant, very [00:23:00] positive, victorious thing.

And that can be helpful. Like, you know, I'm not fully saying that's an unhelpful way of viewing things, but it's kind of ironic because, like, Christianity is also, like, you have the shamed God on the cross. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have, you have, like, crucifixion. Yeah. Yeah. It is a picture of like, intentional shame applied to the body and I mean, a lot, a lot of the history of right from the, you know, the Jewish scriptures through the, you know, sort of early church just a lot of it sucks.

A lot of it is not victory. A lot of it is lament and disappointment and, yeah, a lot, a lot of stuff that is not great. So it's interesting. Does, does our Christianity distract us? From our shame and disappointment or actually ought it to take us there and help us to sit with these things Yeah, you know, [00:24:00]

Carlynne Nunn: that's why I like that if we walk through the lectionary year with the church There are obviously problems with the lectionary as it is and which we don't need to get into now But what I like 

Mitch Forbes: about it, I do

Combat. 

Carlynne Nunn: But what I like is walking through all of the bits. I know people who think, for instance, that Lent is unnecessary because we don't need to feel, sit around and feel penitent because God is, like Jesus has risen, right? And in some ways, I guess, yes, except that's not the human experience. I love that the church year says, here's 40 days when you can, like, think about.

the wilderness and think about being left out or think about being lost or think about being sad and sorry if you want. And think about the fact that Jesus has been those things with you and that's gorgeous. And then we don't just jump straight to Jesus Haha, risen from [00:25:00] the tomb, we have, like you just said, we've got a really sad, depressing last night.

Well, beautiful, with the meal and the foot washing and all that stuff and, but then you've got Jesus good friends, whose feet he's just washed, ditching him one by one. You've got a really unfair trial. You've got, yeah, like the, the brutal, humiliating, torturous death. And then the Saturday, which is just.

Disappointing. Like, it's just, Oh God, what's happened? You know, this is supposed to be glorious. And it's not quite yet. So, yeah. 

Will Small: I was reflecting at Easter last year you know, around, we have a lot more understanding these days around things like PTSD. And around the fact that when something traumatic happens to us, often there's a lag between the thing happening and then when it's [00:26:00] experienced.

And this is a bit of a nod to Becca D'Souza, a friend of the podcast, who was one of the people that kind of first highlighted to me, like, this idea of like, you know, Jesus is a trauma survivor. Who even, even in the glorious celebratory resurrection moment bears the trauma scars and the wounds. Yes. So Saturday is not just something to get through, Saturday kind of bleeds into Sunday.

Like there's still like the hangover of it, which death and resurrection, you know, in the story we've got like this clean break, death on Friday, resurrection on Sunday, but a lot of life feels a lot more like both happening simultaneously. Like, it's Good Friday and Easter Sunday, all at once, all the time.

Do 

Mitch Forbes: you know? John Bear would say that the original Easter was actually only one celebration. Like, it was, they, they, they pulled both of those things together, it wasn't split across the days. Mm. Mm. [00:27:00] Maybe for that reason. Thanks, John. Not to give a false picture of how it works. Mm. Yeah, 

Carlynne Nunn: interesting. Mm. Well, and also, like, people talk about how all, I mean, every Sunday, and indeed every day that we are alive and people of faith and.

in some way celebrating our lives as people of faith. Every day is Easter in terms of, it's not just the truth or something that we preach or talk about or commemorate on Easter Sunday or on Good Friday. It's. Always, and therefore, mesh together and that's why also I love, I'm a nerd and I love the liturgical shape of worship, like I love that we have time to sort of remember why we're there to bring ourselves in prayer and say, We're so grateful for everything, but also we've been dicks and sorry, like, and also, you know, let's pray for the world and also let's remember this hope, like all kind of together [00:28:00] in one sort of beautiful 

Mitch Forbes: circle.

Will Small: I like that. I do feel like the progressive impulse is to skip over the, we've been dicks part. Yeah. Yeah. 

Carlynne Nunn: And it is really strong. I feel, I feel that impulse myself. It's very hard to, you don't want to make people feel like, you That they're bad people, like, you so want to be nice. But 

Will Small: removing the, yeah, removing the space for that, I think we, we lose something.

Now, it can absolutely be harmful if, if not done in the right way. Yeah. It's delicate subject material but enabling the space for confession or for repentance. I mean, these words that, yeah, yeah, they've obviously been weaponized, they're obviously triggers for some people. But actually, I just feel like.

Oh man, sometimes, sometimes it's so good just to say, I, I, I do really suck sometimes. And I don't need to run away from that, you know, like that's how much of, is it also a shame based thing to have to [00:29:00] pretend? Like, you don't suck sometimes.

Mitch Forbes: Yeah, I mean, this is bringing up a couple of things for me. One is, I was talking to my, my, a friend today who's, who's part of the Lutheran Church. Kind of. Nadia? Yeah, my friend Nadia. My favorite, my 

Carlynne Nunn: favorite with NBW was at NBW. Yeah.

Mitch Forbes: No, we just catch up with her at the pub. Like not on the mic. She's just hanging out with her at the pub, just texting earlier today. He's actually 

Carlynne Nunn: in my spare 

Will Small: room. Yeah. She's, she's not, she's not good on podcasts. So that's why we haven't formally had her on.

I just, 

Mitch Forbes: Nadia. I just. You're great on pods. Come on, come on the pod. I reckon you could get it Will. I actually think I did ask. I did ask. You've served enough jobs. Did you actually? Yeah, maybe it's time to ask again. Ask again, yeah. As the the prominence, the, the prominence of spiritual mistress pod goes up enough in [00:30:00] Australia, maybe she will, she'll calm down.

We should get the United invited to like preach fest or something. Carlynne, surely they'll do that. She's one of the 

Carlynne Nunn: best people in the world. Sure, I mean, I have no, I have no sway in those sort of circles, but sure, 

Mitch Forbes: yep, absolutely. Some important, I know there's some important people in the United Church that listen to this pod, so we're putting a 

Carlynne Nunn: call out for you too.

We are a flat church, we are all important people in the United Church, 

Mitch Forbes: right? Well that's true, good point. Anyway, what was the point I was making? Something about Nadia. I don't know. Oh, Lutherans. Oh, Lutherans. He was talking about going to, like, the church. He went back to the church that he used to be at, and it's no longer a Lutheran church.

It's like more Pentecostal. And he's like, mate, it's just, he, he described it as striving. He's like, just striving, like, all the time. Like, it's all, like, it's all about, like, bettering yourself and, like, upping yourself and, you know, like, it's the five tips for a, you know, better, you know, It's like, it's just striving, striving, striving.

And we're both saying, it's not very Lutheran. Like, sorry, Lutheran is very, very much like, there is no [00:31:00] point striving. That's not how it works. But I think this is the tension that I find in like I guess Protestant Evangelicalism more fully like there is something and when Nadia speaks about it It's so compelling right which is just like who cares just calm like we want you to be here And that that's really comfortable when you know when it's you know queer folk and trans people that she's attracting But in a book she even talks about like when you're getting conservatives rocking out because like suddenly Suddenly you're on the radar like normie start showing up and all of a sudden This whole idea that everyone's welcome here doesn't feel so good.

Yes. Right? Because these people are strange and they make life more uncomfortable for us. So there is a tension there, right? Where, yeah, I love that message of don't strive. Like, just be, like, just be, like, sit in it. But then I'm like, I kind of do, like, I also like the idea that growth and transformation is really important.

And you should acknowledge that you've been shitty and you should, like, process that and move through it. And like the path. To union [00:32:00] with Christ and all others is through love and grace and, you know, peace, and that's a journey that you're on, right? So I find this tension where I'm not sure what to do with both of those things.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. I I 

Will Small: love you know, I've recommended a lot of people read the book Atomic Habits. I don't know if you, you know, it's, it's like the biggest airport book of the last couple of years. And a lot of those books that, you know, like, yeah Hyperfocus, Atomic Habits, yeah, they're airport books, you know, I, I love them at, at times.

But then I listened to this podcast called if books could kill, and it's just two guys. They talk about how a lot of these, you know, these books are built on premises that are unhelpful, like an unrealistic vision of how quick people can change. Or you know, they're kind of just a lot of those airport books, like you really get down to it.

It's just, it's all about how that person can make money by selling a lot of false promises. Transcribed maybe with some truth in there, but [00:33:00] ultimately they're just great. They're great for the authors and the publishers, and they're much less interested in actual 

Mitch Forbes: where they actually work. 

Will Small: But, but the thing is, I love both.

I love to read those books and I love to hear somebody like tear those books apart. And I honestly take a bit of both depending on the, like, if I'm in a certain context, I was like, Ooh, let me tell you this great tip from this self help book I read. And then, oh, let me tell you why that self help book that you're reading is actually trash.

You know, what is, what works for me 

Mitch Forbes: at the time. You fickle, fickle man. Reminds me a little bit of, I remember you know that thought of like dying to yourself? It's like really, it's really popular in in the New Testament. Because to live for Christ. And of course, to die to yourself, don't get me crossed with both me.

I'm pretty sure 

Carlynne Nunn: it's popular in the New Testament. That's on track, yeah. 

Mitch Forbes: Yeah. I mean, I like, cause I think it's an airport book, but really 

Carlynne Nunn: it's actually Brene Brown [00:34:00] once again. So, yeah, 

Mitch Forbes: no, and I quite, I love that idea in a way. And I think it's like the, the kind of idea I really, really need to hear. Right.

So I, I, I personally, like I cherish that and I, I like, I, I constantly remind me myself of that. Right. It's not about you. Like it's like, you know, that kind of thing. But then like the critique of that is. When it's being said by powerful people to powerless people, it's saying, don't kick up a stink, don't complain, and like, particularly women have been told this, right?

Like, so, you just don't, you know, you're like, yeah, you just sit there, suck it up, die to yourself, stop thinking about yourself, and it just kind of upholds a pretty gross status quo. So, so there is a sense in which that message is really precious, but then it's really dangerous at the same time, and I don't know how to reconcile that, except that, that it is true and I'm, like, I know, I gotta stop quoting, I, I think I sound like a dick, because I always go, this person said this thing, and then other people have said, [00:35:00] Mitch, it's also you distancing your, yourself from your ideas, so it's you, it's you, like, putting them on the, on someone else, so no one can, like, trace it back to you, yeah, but Ronald Williams did say, he did talk about how how, sometimes that's just not the message that people need to hear.

And you will say that out loud. So you go, I'm talking about this particular thing and people need to hear this, but maybe that's not the message you need to hear. Maybe you need to hear that you have always been precious and valued and you should be listened to. Right. So yeah, that was a kind of somewhere, somewhere in between maybe.

Carlynne Nunn: Yeah. Well, like, yeah, it's almost as if the Bible, is meant to be sort of like really immersed in and understood like as much, you know, and like read in context and like wrestled with altogether over a long period of time rather than because yeah, I can't think of anything right now, but I'm sure there are other parts of scripture that, that say we're worthwhile as individuals.

Like I personally, I think. This whole, like, not, [00:36:00] to separate it from striving, I think part of the beauty of our general calling to the story of Christ is that we're all called as who we are, thank God, you know, and, and we're called with all of our bits and pieces. That was a much better one, that. Oh, was it?

Yeah, yeah, cool. Congratulations, sir. Thank you. 

Mitch Forbes: Can we cut that one 

Carlynne Nunn: back to the beginning? I forgot what I was saying. So we're called as, we're called as who we are. And we are invited into a way of flourishing, right? And, and we're walking with other people to help them flourish. So together we flourish as a community.

Maybe a lot of this stuff comes out when we separate ourselves into that whole, like, individualistic faith, like the striving, I've got to be better, I've got to be better. Whereas if we're working together and walking together and growing together as a community, it's less about how do I better myself, How [00:37:00] do I become a more faithful person?

But maybe that stuff just kind of flows out when you're more naturally when you're sort of like walking with other people. Maybe. 

Mitch Forbes: That's good. Yeah, yeah. No, I think, I think that, that just seems to be true. Also, like, I don't know, is this too, too spicy? I think there's a sense in which, yeah, whatever decision you're making is influenced by all the people around you anyway, right?

Like it's, you are, you are, you're like, no man is an island to quote. Barely spicy at all, man. No, I know, I know. I was just, I, do you know where that came from? A guy, a guy named Glenn Garayan, who gives like motivational speeches. Glenn, if you're on, you're not invited on the pod. But, he he's You're not just going 

Carlynne Nunn: to have a listening party.

Will Small: Same as you Rogan, Joe Rogan, if you're 

Mitch Forbes: listening. You're not invited to the pod. 

Carlynne Nunn: Stay where you are, please, it's fine. But he 

Mitch Forbes: would, he would do this thing where he would go, Look, I know some of you are going to be offended by this. And then he would just like, go in the middle of the speech, and then he'd go on and say the most, and then he'd go, but [00:38:00] You're not the king of the world, or something like that, right?

I'm like, why isn't anyone going to be offended by that? But it really worked, because as soon as you said it, you'd lean in, and you'd be like, ooh, what am I going to be offended about? Like, and it really captivated you. So when I said this was going to be spicy, I was going to No, but I do, there is a sense in, in which Like, it can be a little bit spicy, but, yeah, no, all the, all the, because, it depends who you apply it to, right?

If you apply it to yourself, it's really nice. If you apply it to someone who you politically disagree with, it feels bad, right? Like, they're just there because of, like, all the contingencies, kind of. Yeah, yeah, and it's, well, yeah, like to a certain degree, and that in some ways there's not a whole bunch you can do about that when the whole rest of the world around you is kind of thinking in that same way, right?

Like, you are, you are such a product of the environment. I think it is more spicy than you guys are giving it credit for. You, you are. A product of the world that you immerse yourself in and to kind of, to, you don't, you can't like crawl yourself out of there or buy it all on your lonesome or even if you do, [00:39:00] yeah, how did that come about?

We are products of context. There's a fatalism 

Carlynne Nunn: in that. Yeah. I'm, I'm never going to see the world At this stage, it seems unlikely that I'm going to see the world through the eyes of a like an Asian man, right? Who was born and raised in another country for me. Like, my experience is very different to that person's.

And yeah, that obviously would have some impact. And yeah, like, I'm, I mean, I'm, I'm a person of faith because I was introduced to being a person of faith when I was little, you know, those ideas were ingrained in me fairly early. Fortunately, I kind of like them, some of them. I was going to say something else 

Will Small: now.

Yeah. Well, I, I just, when I was, you know when I was at uni, I was so passionate about arguing for free will, I was so offended by the idea of determinism. And this wasn't in a theological context, this was just purely in terms of like, is the universe from a secular perspective, like. [00:40:00] You know, is it like a game of billiard ball?

Once the first ball gets hit, there's only one way that they can, they can go. And I just like, I really railed against that idea, probably because of my theological intuitions that free will really matters over the years. I've become probably a lot more like deterministic, haven't completely let go of free will.

I think we've got some, I just think the amount that we have is a lot less than we give ourselves credit for. Which to me comes into this whole like I wrote this blog a couple of years ago about like the, the divine lottery and how, you know, if you really do believe that everyone needs to, you know, say the prayer or follow whatever formula to be saved.

And yet there's such discrepancies in how easy or difficult it is to get there, you know, it's a lot harder to say the prayer if you've been abused by a religious leader. It's a lot harder if you grew up in a country where, [00:41:00] you know, Christians are a persecuted minority, which is definitely not our country.

For anyone listening, 

Carlynne Nunn: yeah, yeah. If you're listening, feel free to come on the 

Mitch Forbes: pod. 

Will Small: Yeah. But it's like, so, so in that sense, and this is partly why I have, you know, become a universalist because I'm like, it's just, I think that things are obviously more predetermined than we often want them to be. And so it, the creator of that situation has to, has to be responsible for bringing it towards 

Mitch Forbes: goodness.

Yeah, I, I think I, I've, I'm very similar to Will, I reckon the distinction that we used to make between like Calvinism and Arminianism seems like it's kind of a different way of saying the same thing to me these days, right? Because even if like people do have the freedom to choose like this, it's still so stacked against them that really the, only the people who had the right contingencies would choose it anyway.

Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like the, yeah, it was, I mean, it was a [00:42:00] fantasy in a lot of ways. So, yeah, I think universalism is it you who said 

Will Small: that like, you know, if you make Calvinism universalist, it's not that bad? 

Mitch Forbes: Yeah. Marilyn Robinson is, is, is an example of that. So she's kind of, she's a, she would consider herself a universalist Calvinist.

The idea of the 

Will Small: elect is a lot more, is a lot more palatable when it's like, yeah, you're a human, you're 

Mitch Forbes: in the elect. I was literally having this conversation with someone today about was my granddad's funeral today for everyone who was listening. So this is Wednesday the 27th of March.

And I gave like a, he wasn't particularly religious. But at the end, like we talked, He actually quoted Augustine. He didn't realize it, but he said I wasn't very religious, Mitch, but I've always believed that God was in here, right? And I was like, mate, that's exactly what Augustine says. Don't look out there.

Look in there. Like he's always been there and always have been. Anyway, but he wasn't particularly religious. And so I gave a bit of a he's, my mom is, is deeply Christian and her brothers are not. And, but they [00:43:00] said, Oh Mitch, if you want to give like a talk or something, that's fine. It'll mean something to your mom.

And you know, you were obviously spent a granddad, particularly recently and talked about that kind of stuff. Anyway, I gave a bit of like a, a bit of a universalist spiel and I was talking to a few people who were conservative evangelical afterwards about it. And I was like, Oh look, like my favorite parable in the Bible is the the lost sheep.

And. What I often say is like, it's not like the sheep summons up this kind of courage to like get the weight, like doesn't get the strength to make its way back to the shepherd. You know, the shepherd just goes and picks it up and brings it all the way home. And the, the number of sheep that, that the shepherd has at the end of the story is the number of sheep that he has at the beginning of the story, right?

Like he will find a way to bring you back. And then I was saying to these conservative angelicals is I just, I, I mean, I think that's pretty Calvinist in a way. But I just believe it's not just for a select few that he will actually do it for like literally everyone. So, yeah, I think that's like Marilyn.

That's like, that's a bit Marilyn [00:44:00] Robinson. I love Marilyn 

Carlynne Nunn: Robinson. She's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. If Marilyn, if you're listening don't worry about the pod. Just be my friend. Just, let's just have a coffee. 

Mitch Forbes: Yeah. But, but this problem is that as well, like the whole idea, like determining isn't pretty bad.

Like if there's not, if there's no other forces at work in the world, it's pretty, like, it's pretty bleak. 

Will Small: It's just a percentage game. I'm like, we, we do have a percentage of meaningful, meaningful autonomy, free will. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I definitely, definitely we do. And I think that like part of, you know, if one way of understanding the gospel is a story of liberation.

Liberation's about increasing, increasing autonomy and increasing free will and the less that people have the constraints of, you know, whether it's economics or whether it's you know, gender roles or like whatever it is, like, yeah, we, we maybe part of the gospel is taking us from a determined, you know, State into a liberated one.

Carlynne Nunn: Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. I did not [00:45:00] see the ending up in determinism and 

Mitch Forbes: Oh yeah, we straight a long way. It's always, it's pub, always gonna . That's good. That's good. . The illusion of free conversation has brought us to determinism. To go back to 

Will Small: shame, like Good. This is the paradox of Calvinism. is that you don't really have any choice in the matter.

You should feel ashamed. Yeah. You're a 

Carlynne Nunn: terrible piece of shit. Why has God created a world full of stupid pieces of crap? Like, why does God make heaps of little worms who have to crawl on their bellies? back to God to say I'm sorry, please, please, please, you know, that seems weird to me and egotistical and strange and yeah, like, please tell me why.

I have a person in my life I won't name because it's a bit too mean who is very, [00:46:00] very sure that human nature is You know, like, depraved, and there's a verse in Jeremiah that he always, always quotes, which is something like for the hearts of 

Mitch Forbes: Oh, wicked above all else, or something like that?

Deceitful, that's 

Carlynne Nunn: it, yeah. Oh, wait, yeah. Yeah. Reach. Right. And I'm like, that good news. Nom, nom, nom. Yeah, like it's just, it's, first of all, it's plucked completely out of context. I don't know what it's about when it's in that, in the passage of Jeremiah. Cause I've not done extensive Jeremiah research.

Monica Melanchthon, if you're listening get in touch. She's the new Testament scholar. I'm sorry. Old Testament scholar in, in my Synod. Yeah. Yeah, it just to me is such a tragic view of humanity, this humanity that God loves so much and created with care and blesses abundantly and cha and like, stepped into skin to walk with and [00:47:00] love and embrace and drink with and dance with, like, It's incredible to me that you could look at and also just watch human beings.

Yes. You might be really disgusted, particularly at the moment with the actions of human beings and what we're capable of, but you also will be delighted. You will be delighted. We are delightful. 

Mitch Forbes: I, I, I mean, I believe that all people are by nature, good as in the natural state of human beings is to live in, in goodness and grace.

But I do, I do. Again, like talking contingencies and environments, right? Like, I think if you, if you grow up in an, like, in an environment you know, like think of Nazi Germany or something, right? Like a whole, a whole, A whole group of people managed to, like, not, there's not, I mean, I guess, like, there's one person who's, who's leading, but like a whole, there's just a whole bunch of random little decisions that means that almost from the moment you're born, right, your, your trajectory is towards [00:48:00] like this particular thing to certain degrees.

So I think that's where original sin actually has like a, an interesting thing to talk about. But it's not saying. The, the moment that you're born, you're, you're, you're likely to be a terrible person. But the moment you're born, you're born into a world that is like setting you on, and into, into conditions that are setting you on a particular path and in a particular way.

And there's not, there's actually nothing you can do about that. Even if you, even if you're born in like a beautiful setting, you're still born into a world where, you know, like kids die of you know, horrific diseases and, you know, where other people around the world do these kinds of things to these group of people, right?

So you're still yeah, shaped by all 

Will Small: that kind of stuff. Because, you know, you're not going to get the same negative reaction if you talk about intergenerational trauma. 

Mitch Forbes: We're okay with that. Yeah, 

Will Small: yeah, yeah. Intergenerational trauma, is that not an inherited? Form of the brokenness of the world, not to say that people are fundamentally broken.

I agree with you, but that we all inherit. [00:49:00] Cracks and creases. Yeah. 

Mitch Forbes: Yeah. And it like, and to get back to, to being natural us, right. I think is the desire. So to being completely human, to use that kind of language or to be, to being completely you, which is a trajectory towards what is most natural, which is to live in love and grace and peace and truth and all those kind of things, I think.

Yeah. And maybe 

Carlynne Nunn: like the brokenness, like the cracks that we have a part of that, as in, Not talking about brokenness in terms of, like, we're whole and complete if we still have, like, deep seated white supremacy at it, you know, at our core or whatever. Like, that's obviously stuff that probably needs to be rooted out pretty quick.

But I'm interested in the idea that cracks, the metaphorical cracks, the, the breaks within us aren't always things that need to be, you know, Ironed out. Or fixed up. Yeah. I was listening to a song recently, I found it just in the [00:50:00] right time. Every now and then when I'm preparing worship, something comes along just at the right time and I go, Well, there you go.

Something's happening. And I found a song by a band called the Bergsons, I think. And it start like it starts with a chant, Hope comes from the place where the hurt comes. And the lady just sings that over and over again, Hope comes from the place where the hurt comes. And it's a song about the kind of existence at the same time of the stuff that's hurting you and the stuff and the fact that you can't necessarily always feel hope.

But that hope is an action and so therefore can always be present even when perhaps you're not feeling hope anyway, which maybe is vaguely off topic, but I just like the notion that she says, the part of you that's not all right is also the part that sees the light or needs the light. Yeah. Anyway, like that whole, the cracks away, the light gets in kind of thing, which people like to talk about.

Mitch Forbes: I I get thinking of this pedestal sermon where sometimes they just say like, they just have cranking line one [00:51:00] liners, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember what it was, but it was something like, who told you that? And you kept going, like, you name a thing that someone, like some burden someone was, was carrying.

And he said, who told you that? He's like, who told you that? And just being like, who cares what these other people, you know, whether these people are saying like, that's not what matters, you know, like, who told you that? Who told you that it's bad to have these guys? Who told you that? And I was like, that was a pretty good sermon.

Maybe we can like, Resurrect that somehow. Who told you that? I don't know. I don't know who told you 

Carlynne Nunn: that. I have a similar story but I won't actually reference who the preacher was. Because he's now disgraced. But I saw him at a, the one time I went to Hillsong Conference. Which was an experience. There was a, he was talking about the story of Jesus talking to, I think this Syro Phoenician woman.

So he has this little chat and then his disciples come up and say, Hey, do you want to get some food? And he goes, no, no, no. I'm not, well, I have food that you [00:52:00]

Mitch Forbes: can't. Oh, I know who you're talking about. And 

Carlynne Nunn: he goes, he goes, he looks like this, he goes. No, thank you. I just ate! And then he goes, This is Jesus food!

And me and my friends never forgot it. This is Jesus food! But he's bad, that man. He's bad. I do think, 

Mitch Forbes: I reckon it'd be like a cool, like, just going through Pentecostal, you know, like a, when you, when, like, You can jump in here because this is your world, but when you remix someone, like you take that, you know, you take this lame kind of thing that someone did and then you put it in, you know, a much, a much cooler thing.

What do we call this Will? Because sampling, that's it. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because you used to be a, yeah, hip hop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I reckon maybe, like, maybe our job for the rest of this year is to do, like, to go through some Pentecostal [00:53:00] sermons and find the great one liners and repurpose them for a uniting, uniting progressive Christian church, Christian church audience.

Carlynne Nunn: Once again, don't use that sample because he's a bad man. I, 

Mitch Forbes: Yeah, I don't, I don't think so. But I did, but I did, have we strayed way too far from everything? Do we have like a, do we have three minutes to bring it back to? Three 

Carlynne Nunn: minutes to finish unpacking disappointment, shame and 

Mitch Forbes: illness. Yeah. Yeah, we didn't talk about mental illness yet.

Carlynne Nunn: Well, I will just say the reason, like, we have strayed from what I thought, which is great because that's what conversations at pubs do. But I I just, I, all I would say is I just think that the reason I'm drawn to these kind of conversations, particularly, With people like us, with people who are leading in churches and that sort of thing is because it seems to me we don't talk about it enough.

I, I, like, I, I agree. I think that probably a lot of us are just faking it till we make it. The more, the older I get, the more I realize that all of us are pretending to be [00:54:00] adults. Including those who I envy and feel like I need to compare myself to. And comparison is where a lot of my shame comes from sometimes.

But I, I'm, I'm really happy to say. Like, I've been really broken, I feel shame about myself sometimes, I feel, I don't know what to do with the disappointment that I was left with after bad experiences I've had, and I don't know who's having those conversations. Like, I feel like people seem put together and like, smooth and calm and maybe jested to the fact that human beings generally have troubles.

But, I want, I want church leaders to be saying, Oh yeah, yeah, like I fuck up all the time. Like I, I'm, I feel a sense of shame about that. I don't know, maybe in an inappropriate context. So, that's, that's why it's important to me. Because I just think, the more, that's why I like, I make people uncomfortable all the time by talking about.

Going a bit mad a couple of years ago [00:55:00] because I just don't think it's talked about enough, particularly in church circles. So yeah, that's why I wanted to talk about those things. So 

Mitch Forbes: So good. You did, you it did put me on a path, like to think about some of this, like parallel processing. Um, a bunch of stuff.

Anyway, we can't talk about that. We don't have time, but yeah, thank you. That was, that was, yeah, that was really helpful and really beautifully put. No, thank 

Carlynne Nunn: you. Thanks for having 

Will Small: me. Thank you guys. I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of in leaving this great conversation. 

Mitch Forbes: It was so good.

Hey, I would say our first guest to the pub has set a pretty high bar. Absolutely. I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's definitely like, we're going to need a real high jumper for the next one to even reach the heights. Yeah. You can bring the next friend. Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, 

Carlynne Nunn: okay. Yeah. My friend.

Hopefully your friend will be

Mitch Forbes: I'm going to text her as soon as we get off this call. 

Carlynne Nunn: Again, I'll just go talk to her cause she was 

Mitch Forbes: just in my back. I'll tell her [00:56:00] to respond to your email. We'll yeah. 

Will Small: All right, you get back to Nadia, you get back to your family. Thank you guys. Much love. Peace