‘My Generational Deconstruction’ with Joanna Drayton, Ken Day and Ella Evans

Spiritual Misfits and Uniting Mission and Education's Pulse team have collaborated to bring you a series of conversations about 5 pressing challenges we face on planet earth today, and the kind of faith that may help emerging generations to navigate and engage with them.

In this conversation a Boomer (Ken Day), Gen X (Joanna Drayton), Millennial (Will Small) and Gen Z (Ella Evans) discuss generational divides and opportunities in the realm of spirituality and community.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Will Small: The spiritual landscape of Australia is shifting. Emerging generations have little tolerance for BS. If Gen Z are going to have a faith that lasts, it needs to be one that can handle the real questions raised by life on planet earth in this moment. Spiritual Misfits have partnered with Uniting Mission and Education's Pulse team to host a series of conversations about the kind of spirituality that can engage with our biggest questions.

[00:00:28] Courage and honesty rather than becoming disengaged, disillusioned, or overwhelmed. Are you ready? Let's go.

[00:00:43] Well, Ken, Ella, Joe, thank you so much for joining me for one of these conversations, part of a larger set of conversations, exploring what it means to keep faith. In a world of some pretty significant challenges, particularly for emerging generations Gen Z, Gen Alpha coming after them. And this particular conversation is actually going to look at the generational differences and generational attitudes that can sometimes cause a bit of tension.

[00:01:13] But I'd love to just begin by giving each of you a chance to kind of locate yourself within the conversation. Who are you? What generation are you here kind of loosely representing? You know, I guess, what's your interest in this particular conversation around how generations maybe dialogue or fail to do so?

[00:01:32] How about we start with yourself, Ken? 

[00:01:35] Ken Day: I'm Ken and I'm a minister in the Uniting Church. I'm at St. Stephen's in Macquarie Street, Sydney. And I've been in ministry for 40 years now. I'm a boomer. And I've lived my life in the life of the church and, but not always right in the center of the church, but I've always been part of one of the generations.

[00:01:57] I've been them as they've come through. And I am one of them now. I'm, I'm the Burma. And I also, because of being involved in the church and fortunately in congregations that have always had multi age, I've seen all the different generations in the life of a congregation. I'm looking forward to what we can bring out of that, especially with the others around this panel.

[00:02:21] It's going to be a good conversation. 

[00:02:24] Will Small: Wonderful. Well, you are a very welcome boomer in this space. Thank you, Ken. Ella, tell us about you. 

[00:02:30] Ella Evans: Yeah my name's Ella. I am honorary Gen Z on the panel. I work as a youth and young adults pastor at a uniting church in the Blue Mountains at Glenbrook Uniting Church. And I guess that is the, I guess the, the, the main reason I'm interested in this stuff is because I, my role is generational. My job is sort of anyone under 30. But I attend a church that is very generationally diverse. It's one of our, our three values is being intergenerational. And so that conversation and that dialogue, how we negotiate those generational differences makes a huge difference, not just to my work, but to the discipleship of.

[00:03:11] The people that I am pastorally responsible for to my discipleship, and to the life of the whole church, I think. 

[00:03:19] Will Small: Wonderful. Good to have you as part of the chat, Ella, and Joanna. 

[00:03:24] Joanna Drayton: Hi, I'm Joanna, and I'm currently the Pulse team leader. I am the representative gen Xer, and I'm deeply passionate about young people, have been for years.

[00:03:37] But, you know, hang out with my Boomer colleagues and friends and and my own peers as well as spend a lot of time with young people intentionally and passionately. Yeah. It's a great conversation. Really looking forward to it. 

[00:03:51] Will Small: Will there be any raging against the machine during this conversation from your Gen X?

[00:03:57] Joanna Drayton: There's always a little bit of raging against some Shane somewhere. That's our modus operandi, is it not? 

[00:04:02] Will Small: Yep, I agree. And I will be representing the millennial contingent. I am yeah, millennial Gen Y, depending on what language you want to use. And I'm very interested in this conversation and to give you a little anecdote the spiritual misfits podcast, which I've been sort of making for a while now, I put a little poll in our Facebook group, maybe a year ago, where I asked the listeners that were in that group.

[00:04:28] What generation are you? And I was expecting it to mainly be millennials, I suppose, because, you know, I'm a millennial. So I just think we're the generation that matters most. But also, I really have felt like there's been a bit of a shift in terms of certain conversations in the church and spirituality that I guess, from my point of reference has involved a lot of millennials, maybe leaving faith or deconstructing is the big word.

[00:04:51] Anyway, this poll turned out that Of those that responded, it was pretty much an equal split between Baby Boomers, Gen X and Millennials, very few Gen Zs. And I think that's interesting because it seems like Gen Zs do not necessarily have as much of a faith to deconstruct at this point, although Ella, I would very welcome your input on that through the conversation.

[00:05:14] But I suppose what that showed me is that every generation is. Still part of this larger conversation around what kind of faith is worth keeping and carrying forward, but I'd be interested because there are, you know, generational nuances. I'd be interested if each of you would take a moment to reflect on.

[00:05:33] Do you think there has been a particular question issue or challenge that has been one that in your lifetime? Has really gripped your generation and being kind of a make or break faith question or conversation. Does anything come to mind for you, Ken, or maybe there's a couple across time, but what do you think are some of the big faith shaping questions for boomers? 

[00:05:59] Ken Day: Think in terms of some of the questions we, we look at, I remember in Sunday school in the Christian life curriculum, we were taught about creation, that the Bible teaches us. Why things were created, science teaches us how it was created. I think that was the start for my generation of the change in thinking.

[00:06:26] It was no longer that the Bible teaches us how it was created, why it was created and so on. But we were starting to open up the scriptures. And I think Christian life curriculum was seen by some as a very Progressive type of curriculum back then. But it was the set one for the churches that came into union and it opened up these questions.

[00:06:46] We then moved through those so that by the time I was in theological college then some of these questions were nearly like, are we still talking about this? And I find that interesting, that we've lived with that, that change of understanding of Scripture. So, for us, the problem hasn't been the change of understanding of Scripture.

[00:07:09] The problem for us often is, other people don't understand, we understand the change. And having to live with that. With, why aren't you seeing it the way we are? And that frustration I believe for some people means they step away from, from the church and they follow it another way. That's been in terms of faith.

[00:07:31] The change of how we read the scriptures 

[00:07:34] Will Small: very interesting about we will go down the line generationally this time and also just put out the caveat that may need to come up a few times throughout this conversation that we're generalizing and when it comes to generational conversations, there's no sort of one size fits all answer.

[00:07:49] But. Jo, what do you think, particularly for Gen X, have there been moments that have felt like a real shift, like the, the ground is a bit unsteady in terms of what faith and spirituality has looked like? 

[00:08:00] Joanna Drayton: I think Gen X is possibly one of the least represented generations in the church these days.

[00:08:07] Many 40 and 50 somethings have left, most have left, there's a big gap, we've got some younger people coming back through, and the boomers are well represented, but X has, has marched, and I think that's partly in response to their parents asking questions, and in response to you. Life shifting so significantly, technology changing the way that we think and feel, and entertainment's easier, and there's a whole stack of reasons why, but rather than necessarily exploring and re examining faith and life, they walked, took an easier option because they could.

[00:08:44] Will Small: Do you personally have moments you can remember where you had peers that were in that process of, leaving? And if so, do you remember what some of the kind of catalysts were for that? 

[00:08:56] Joanna Drayton: I'm a bit of an unusual one because I didn't become a Christian until I was 22 and I didn't grow up in a Christian family.

[00:09:02] They're still not believers. And so kind of the reverse of me, I walked in as they were walking out and I was questioning why and wondering. And it, I think it was predominantly about other options were easier than actually asking those questions of themselves and meeting other people because church was no longer the center of society.

[00:09:21] So they weren't meeting partners and friends in churches, they were meeting partners and friends outside. And you know, the world, the world got bigger through technology, through the fax machine, which was an invention when I was very young. So things like that, I think not even so much. Thinking it through so much as experimenting with other options because there were so many I think influence some of that 

[00:09:44] Will Small: sure and part of the Gen X as far as I understand it is also sort of that questioning of just authority structures was probably part of that maybe where they had previously been a higher degree of just kind of loyalty that maybe got a bit.

[00:09:58] Weakened down for good and for bad. Speaking for the millennials and I guess in terms of the experience that many of my peers have had and, and myself, to some extent, conversations around sexuality have been absolutely, I'd say, at the epicenter of a lot of other questions and conversations that have flowed out of that, but particularly, I think, for many of my friends, it's been watching as there's been an increasing Acceptance within Australian culture of LGBTQI plus folks.

[00:10:32] The church's reticence to extend that same acceptance and embrace has often come across as a major hypocrisy. Many of my friends would talk about, you know, actually sometimes We've walked out of church because it feels like following Jesus would lead us to stand up for those who have been excluded rather than to continue to participate in spaces where the exclusion is happening.

[00:10:55] But out of that, there are a number of things that I would say have kind of been secondary things that have come out of it, for example. Looking at, you know, doctrines around eternal conscious torment and hell and different, you know, realizing that they're actually different ways. People have grappled with that throughout time, but sometimes it's kind of been the sense that there's only one, only one acceptable way to view that here.

[00:11:17] But yeah, I think for, for millennials, the sexuality conversation has been a huge one. Ella, was I right or wrong in terms of my analysis of Gen Zed and whether or not there is kind of a, deconstructing of faith happening, or is it at a different kind of stage? What would you say are some of the big questions that Gen Zs have when it comes to spirituality?

[00:11:41] Ella Evans: Yeah, I mean, I think there's always going to be people who are deconstructing because there are always pockets of really rigid faith in all sorts of traditions. I wonder if the question for Gen Z is similar to millennials, but different in that I think A lot of Gen Zed were not raised in any way in the church or in the faith they have.

[00:12:04] Completely secular parents and families. And the way they've been raised in their families and in the culture and in their education has encouraged them to look at the church and faith generally, but the church in particular and have a look at like its sociological role and its historical role.

[00:12:23] But there's none of that, when you're raised in the church, you still have a bit of that loyalty that means like, Oh, how can I sort of twist this to still make it work and lessen the cognitive dissonance? But a lot of Gen Z don't have that impulse. And so they see the church and I think it's it perpetrating and being complicit in a whole host of like historical injustice.

[00:12:43] From the treatment of women, the treatment of queer people. Obviously the sexual abuse stuff in Australia is massive. It's, it's role in all of those things. And I think the question is you know, how can I in any way reconcile Christian faith and participation in a Christian church with those questions of the way that the church was and continues to be sort of complicit or perpetrating those things.

[00:13:09] And I think that question can be answered, but unless it's a good answer that lessens that like cognitive dissonance I think it's a real struggle for it. Gen Zeds to engage in faith in the church in that especially that institutional way. 

[00:13:25] Will Small: Yeah, huge. And I think related to that is just the availability of information these days.

[00:13:32] I would say the kind of literacy that emerging generations have around different options, different ways of thinking about things. It's potentially a lot less silent than it has previously been 

[00:13:42] Ella Evans: like we are you know, certainly not as good as it could have been, but like I was taught about the stolen generations in school and the role the church had in it, like the the literacy around stuff like, you know, feminism or colonialism or justice is yeah, I think we've been both the education system has come a long way from, you know, Where it once was.

[00:14:04] But also, like, the advent of social media means that there is way more available. And so I think, yeah, probably that baseline literacy about justice is maybe higher in Gen Zs at their age than previous generations. 

[00:14:21] Will Small: Sure, 

[00:14:22] Ella Evans: not knocking other generations. Obviously, you guys can be really pro justice 

[00:14:26] Will Small: and I want to acknowledge that you've had the most time walking in faith on this panel.

[00:14:32] And then I think that sometimes that's kind of overlooked by younger generations, but I think that does bring with it potentially a certain level of some karma waters, some, some wisdom earned over time. Have there been moments in your journey when you have felt particularly disillusioned? By certain things that you've seen within church, Christianity, biblical interpretation that has actually made you tempted to, to walk away.

[00:14:56] And if so, what did you, what did you do with it? That kind of impulse. 

[00:15:01] Ken Day: Nothing ever with the faith. Never has anything in the faith. made me want to walk, but there has been in, and we've been talking about that fifth character, the church. 

[00:15:17] Ella Evans: And the, I'm going to say, and whoever that is, but 

[00:15:24] Ken Day: it's, it does have an influence. And I think at one stage I gained the strength to decide that I will work locally, work hard locally and be part of the church. But I'm not going to let that make me walk. I'm not going to walk away from the faith because of some parts of the institution, be it in our denomination or the wider church and its history.

[00:15:58] I, I won't let that happen. So I, you know, I can even tell you a day I made that decision that I would do it. And I went and saw a movie, Jesus of Montreal has nothing to do with this, but I went and saw it with an elder. As part of a retreat, because I was thinking at that stage, I'm, I'm going from, from this, this church.

[00:16:18] And it was after that I thought, no, you know, there's enough strength. And before when you're asking, we also were around in the time of the charismatic movement. And that brought a lot of life. Of spirit and faith to us. For some, it was difficult but for many of us it built on what we'd already had.

[00:16:44] Our elders, whoever that generation is before us, were building on it built on for us. 

[00:16:49] Will Small: Yeah. Yeah. I want to come back to that because I want to talk about some of those strengths that each generation has brought or experienced, those kind of richer moments. It's really interesting what you were saying a moment ago did make me think about there's kind of this growing category of the spiritual, but not religious, who you could say are people who have done what you were just articulating where they've gone.

[00:17:10] I'm not necessarily leaving the faith or the spirituality, but I am done with this institution or with this capital C church. And I think part of what this conversation is really around is, is there a future? Yeah. For the church, as you know, is there a way of being spiritual, not necessarily religious, depending on what we think about that word, but spiritual and engaged in communities that are more healthy than harmful, I think, is a live question for a lot of people today.

[00:17:40] But let's talk about these strengths, you know, it's easy to like, just criticize across generations and talk about what we don't like about other generations. But if you think about what you think your generation has really brought. To the, the realm, the landscape of spirituality and Christianity in Australia, in your lifetime, what do you think are actually some of the gifts that maybe aren't always recognized?

[00:18:06] Let's start the other end this time. Ella, what do you think Gen Z actually are bringing right now that the rest of the generations could pay attention to and learn from? 

[00:18:15] Ella Evans: Yeah, I mean, I think. I think Gen Zed are bringing a real hunger for justice and a appropriately low tolerance. Can I say, I'm going to say BS and hope that that's okay for spiritual mystics. Yeah, I think there's a almost truth telling component to that that the wider church really needs from younger people. And I think we bring something that is maybe not specific to Gen Zed, but specific to younger people at whatever point in time, which is I think young people really want to be part of something some kind of movement or community that matters and that has meaning.

[00:18:55] And I think maybe in particular, Gen Zed is really, really hungry for community. Like we grew up with that. A lot of us, you know, parents who both worked for people who didn't grow up in the church, like, community organizations are kind of on the down, the idea of, yeah, community where you regularly interact and have like what we would call fellowship with people that you actually wouldn't meet otherwise, people who are different ages from different, you know, socioeconomic backgrounds, different cultural backgrounds, maybe people you just actually don't like, who normally you would have, you know, good reason to avoid, but at church there is something bigger than you.

[00:19:32] That brings you together. I think that's that experience of community is something that Jen said really values which I hope is, which I hope can bring maybe more vibrancy back to church community. 

[00:19:43] Will Small: Yeah, that's great. Suppose when I think about millennials and some of the strengths that I think millennials have brought, I do think there has been an amplification of the conversation around different views, different theologies, different perspectives.

[00:19:58] Yeah. And it's interesting because none of these things exist in isolation from each other. I'm sure that that actually the foundation for that was probably laid by Gen X and in some ways, I think Gen Z have probably surpassed some of what the millennials have done in terms of that. So they're always interconnected.

[00:20:14] But I do think that with millennials, from what I've observed, there's potentially been. Less of that kind of unquestioning loyalty, more of a willingness to challenge the status quo vocally which can be uncomfortable and potentially often has led to a lot of people with more questions than answers and maybe some less stability and less of that, you know, with that loyalty comes a level of commitment that can bring health to communities that maybe millennials haven't necessarily had.

[00:20:45] But I do think that kind of willingness to challenge the status quo regardless sometimes of the cost is something that I celebrate in, in my peers when I see that happen. 

[00:20:56] Joanna Drayton: I think, I think the exes started some of that, which resulted in a lot leaving. That there wasn't access to, or openness or permission to have the conversations as deeply as you guys.

[00:21:09] You, you know, your education's changed since I was at school where we were taught things, whereas I think generations after mine were taught to think and work together and collaborate and, you know, things like that. So I think that's impacted the church. I think we were a big, you know, carrier of the charismatic thing.

[00:21:29] I certainly started my journey in the charismatic church, and that inspired our generation somewhat and then disillusioned and disappointed our generation somewhat because it wasn't well established or something. And so it then damaged that to some degree. But I think we those of us that have stayed in the church have held community and we're now the leaders of.

[00:21:51] most, many congregations and certainly have had a crack at raising our children to explore their faith and ask their questions and and hang on if they can, or at least hang on to the spiritual, not necessarily the institution, because we're To some degree, many of us are letting go of institutional faith, but still have a belief in, you know, a higher power if they need to hang on to that for various reasons in life, which you'll cover later this afternoon, probably yeah.

[00:22:21] Will Small: Yeah, very good, Jo. What comes to mind for you, Ken? Yeah, 

[00:22:25] Ken Day: I'm the charismatic. I think the problem for the charismatic side is that it, it didn't realize that the Holy Spirit was going to be willing to cross generations and cross theologies, cross styles. I think then, so it started to think you, the Holy Spirit thinks like us, and our theology, and in some cases, some of the charismatic movement then became the conservative church.

[00:22:57] Whereas there are others where we're saying, no, you can actually be in the movement of the spirit and not be conservative. And that started to confuse some people. 

[00:23:07] Ella Evans: I forgot the Holy Spirit wasn't a Calvinist. Yes, that's right, yes, 

[00:23:10] Ken Day: yes. So, the Holy Spirit doesn't get bound by the generations. And I think in the community that you were saying how in finding that community, it's because the Spirit is not bound again in, by a certain style in that community.

[00:23:31] And I I, my children are in their thirties now, my grandchildren, but I, they, they have, they're in different ways of faith. And they see things, but they don't see them the same, but have all obviously been influenced by the same minister who was very good they had me all the way, but it's interesting to see how they're expressing their faith.

[00:23:53] You know, and that the spirit has guided them, even though the same generation, they different ways of living, thinking, dressing, sport, music, and so on. Yeah. So the spirit is not bound by, and the generations are not bound by the, all the boomers aren't like me. Thank goodness for that. Praise Jesus.

[00:24:20] Will Small: Look, it's true. And at a certain point, you know, these categories can be unhelpful. Suppose on the other hand, we know that there are trends and patterns that each generations bring to how they approach social issues or how they approach, you know, justice. Or there are some kind of very different approaches.

[00:24:39] At scale I wonder from your perspective are there things that you perceive like cross generationally where you feel that you feel frustrated maybe you know this is not not creating a permission just to slam each other but what are some things that you look at generations other than yours and you sometimes just feel like I wish you knew this or I wish you would balance that with this or I You know are there things that you feel kind of some generational frustration around when you look at how Christianity is approached right now or conversations around shifting attitudes are approached right now in the, in the broader context that we're in.

[00:25:18] Ella Evans: One thing that comes to mind for me is when I was at Bible college, and I think this isn't. specific to my generation. I think this is across it. But there was a conversation happening around apologetics, like the defense of the faith. And I just remember feeling like I was tearing my hair out trying to convey to my sort of Gen X and older lecturers, like, no one my age cares about Richard Dawkins.

[00:25:42] Like, they are obsessed with, you know, a guy who wrote, you know, this book, like he wrote the God's Illusion. And I'm like, I get that it blew up the world when you were. In your twenties. But people my age are like returning to paganism and witchcraft. The conversation is radically different, you know, people you know, the, and I went to a more evangelical Bible college, but the quote unquote, like fight of their time was against like, you know, logical, rational atheism.

[00:26:12] And so they would be like, would you worship the clock? No, you would worship the clock maker. And it it felt insane to me to put that much effort into what was essentially like shadow boxing. I'm like, it's not there, or at least it's not there in people my age. And so yeah, like they weren't effective in their evangelism as much passion and enthusiasm for the gospel as they had because they hadn't, I guess, updated their mental model of what kept people from 

[00:26:46] Will Small: It's a really good example, and it just shows that, you know, we can, I guess every generation can be at risk of kind of attaching itself to a moment in time, and then just carrying that through and not letting go or not listening to how the conversation progresses.

[00:27:03] Joanna Drayton: I think I've got some frustration with my own generation. Because they're perpetuating what the boom has created, which, which is, you know, hanging onto to tradition to some degree, which we don't need to do anymore. I, I want to, we, we do know we do some of, but not all of, there's no one way to do church.

[00:27:22] There's no one way to do spirituality and faith. I think if we, if my generation can keep listening to Y's and Z's and, and certainly A's, things can shift. more radically and quicker, I think. We're holding on to this model that's now very outdated. And myself, but that's just me. And, but yes, we have to hang on to tradition.

[00:27:46] So, but we still need to filter everything through, you know, what else is going on in society? What's God actually saying now? Who, who are the people coming through? And and what do they need to know? Why, why would they experiment with witchcraft when there's a perfectly fantastic gospel to hang on to and explore?

[00:28:06] Will Small: And what, what are us younger generations doing that just. Really, just 

[00:28:14] Ken Day: turn up on time, would you every Sunday, I think that's some of the our generation thing is why don't they just,

[00:28:27] You know, and sometimes I slip into that but I, I like the phrase work with what you've got. And so I said to people, it doesn't matter, just work with it.

[00:28:37] My generation is getting older and older, as all are, but ours is to that point now we realize our humanity and the approaching of, of death. And the, the generation, whichever it would be just a bit older than me, when the church was talking about sexuality, et cetera. I remember one really wise elder in our church.

[00:28:59] He said to me, the older I get, I believe More and more in less and less. And things don't matter as much. So our generation, as we do get older and why don't you turn up on time will gradually become. It doesn't matter, you know we will be out of the way of that conversation. And it's the, what we see in the next generation is so important because we will be watching from the clouds of glory and waving you on.

[00:29:28] And so for our generation, I think, because as we see that we see if our parents are still alive, they're definitely approaching the latter years and so on. That's part of our, our mortality is part of who we are. And we're letting go of things more. I, I think, I hope, but until we get to that, our, our motto is, why don't you turn up on time?

[00:29:50] We always did that sort of thing that, that, you know, and look at me 40 years in one job, that's not what people do these days, you know, 

[00:30:02] Will Small: that's my worst nightmare, 

[00:30:03] Ken Day: you know, that longevity of things. 

[00:30:09] Joanna Drayton: Someone said to me the other day, you've moved around a lot, you know, you, you, Basically, you're a bit of a flippity jib at knowing, oh, six, four to five, six years is my average.

[00:30:18] Is that really flitting about? But they were that, you know, older, older than me enough to go, 

[00:30:24] Music: yeah, 

[00:30:24] Joanna Drayton: that's not long enough. You need to stay in a job for 40 years. That's right. I 

[00:30:28] Ella Evans: don't think. At least maybe from like, Gen Z perspective. Like to me, there's something very romantic about staying in the same job, especially, I mean, maybe I'm biased cause I'm really pro ordained ministry, but there's something to me that's like quite romantic about 40 years in the same job.

[00:30:45] And I think lots of people younger people, like, crave that kind of stability. But yeah, I think a lot of the, why don't you just, and I'm with you, like, you know, half of my job, it feels like, is like begging, like, please, sir, may I have some more volunteers, like I think that's just ministry, but the, the facts of the world have changed.

[00:31:06] Like so many people have two working adults in their family now. Like people drive from 40 minutes away to come to our church because it's one of the only affirming churches in the area. You know, things like that mean that the logistically, like the world has really changed in terms of, you know, how expensive it is to live, how hard it is to find a place to rent, the improbability of finding a place to buy.

[00:31:30] Which changes all of those, why can't you just questions, which is frustrating from the inside of ministry, but also, you know, what can you do? Like the facts of the world are changing people's lives. 

[00:31:44] Will Small: It's interesting. I lead a small, quite alternative faith community and it did start out as predominantly like millennials and younger.

[00:31:53] And yet in the last couple of years, I would say that the, like, fastest growing demographic in our little community has been baby boomers who bring much more stability, baby boomers and Gen X, who, when they come and they kind of maybe re engage with a community after maybe some time out they do rock up regularly.

[00:32:15] And they have a kind of a level of commitment that comes fairly without having to force that sort of energy. And yet, if you say something to people of my generation around commitment, it's like, I'm out of here. It can be kind of this like. There's a heightened sensitivity, sometimes for good reason because people have experienced sort of burnout in church or you know, they haven't had the space to be able to, to make those decisions without feeling like there's a judgment.

[00:32:45] But it's interesting because there's a part of me that's like, ah, that's one of those things where I'm like, if, if we could have a little bit more of this from you guys and if we could, you know, shift a bit of this attitude over to you guys, we would all benefit. I think the other thing that kind of related to that longevity that sometimes frustrates me a little bit is that I suppose sometimes I think millennials have been looking to some baby boomers who are maybe kind of still in positions of leadership and power.

[00:33:12] And we feel like you actually, I think you agree with what I think at this point in time, but you're kind of riding out the last bit where you don't want to rock the boat. And sometimes I felt this sense of it would be it would carry so much more weight and I guess you see it sometimes you see someone of an older generation who has, you know, they could very easily just cruise out and have a, you know, pretty good legacy in terms of their peers, sort of says something that is quite, it's not costly in the sense that they don't really need the.

[00:33:43] The career anymore, but it's socially costly and I think sometimes I crave a bit more of that. I crave a little bit more of that challenging the status quo from people who may be off the mic would agree, but maybe have a little bit more. I don't know, maybe they're being more just respectful of, of the system in some way, but it's sometimes why I just feel a little bit more, you know, get some of that Gen X energy up in there, guys and, and ask some of those questions.

[00:34:12] But 

[00:34:13] Joanna Drayton: is fear a big driver? There's a Gen X question for you. I think across all generations, fear, and particularly in church, fear is a big one because change is hard. How do we change anything? How do we interpret what God's doing? How, how, why, what, when? I think fear creates people to hold on to things, hold on to the way things were.

[00:34:33] And, and I think that's it. That's a driver. I 

[00:34:35] Will Small: wonder. Well, absolutely. And, you know, to, to, I think we've seen when people have potentially publicly come out and said something quite courageous, they're often absolutely spout up and shoot out. And so I think that that then reinforces this narrative of, well, no, like we're going to keep this thing as it is.

[00:34:54] Until it potentially dies because it's just losing numbers so 

[00:34:58] Joanna Drayton: until someone else braver than me does something else different over there and we'll go there. 

[00:35:04] Will Small: Yeah I'm interested I suppose you know I think we think about young people and whether or not they're going to grow up in in churches or not.

[00:35:11] You know, I still think one of the greatest gifts that church ought to offer is a space of intergenerational community is a community of people who you wouldn't necessarily find yourself anywhere else with, except brought together by faith that kind of brings together people from all walks of life and all ages.

[00:35:30] And I think that's a, that's a great loss. If people don't have that, I'm interested, do you feel like you have seen or experienced a Christian community that has helped to bridge? Generational divides and has potentially helped you to have relationships, whether that's in kind of a mentoring capacity or just a friendship capacity or learning from people older or younger than you.

[00:35:52] Have you experienced that? What does it look like at its best? Or is it something you've, you've longed for and haven't experienced 

[00:36:01] Ella Evans: potentially?

[00:36:04] Ken Day: I'll quickly get it out before I die. Just cause this is my, my big thing. I reckon in our basis of union, it says that the local congregation or the church will be guided by the gifts that the Holy Spirit has put within each person and that will order its life according to those gifts. So as anybody of any generation, any age comes into the life of a community.

[00:36:26] The Holy Spirit's given them gifts and we, we are as leaders responsible for helping them discover that gift if they haven't yet, but they may have already or affirm that gift and let them run with it, including lead, let them lead and not based on, well, you haven't, you're not old enough already, but based on the gifts, you have these gifts run with it and we'll support you and it will help us order the life of this congregation.

[00:36:54] We won't do anything outside the gifts. If that's what's here, that's what we run with. And and I have in my experience found that across generations, they, they, they run with it. Sometimes we've put in a thing that there must be at least two elders who are under the age of 20, perhaps onto the council of elders or whatever.

[00:37:16] And so we've might have had to put something in for a year or two years to get it, to kick it. To kick it over, but then it just keeps happening and the intergeneration remains. I, that's, that's how we are, that's who we are. And I, I think that's one of the geniuses of God when God called us into community.

[00:37:39] Let the people, whatever generation, and not based on age, run with it, and support them, cheer them on. 

[00:37:48] Will Small: We'll take more boomers like you, thanks, Ken. No, it's a great point, and it's, you know, it's such an opportunity lost. When community doesn't have that openness, Ella, from your perspective, do you feel like you've had the benefits of intergenerational wisdom in your experience of Christian community?

[00:38:08] Ella Evans: Yeah, definitely. I grew up in a different denomination to the Uniting Church. And I was exposed to intergenerationality there, right? Like a lot of churches, especially suburban churches will, you know, from newborns to, to the very elderly. I feel particularly grateful just sort of hearing you speak about like very grateful for the fact that the Uniting Church kind of puts its money.

[00:38:33] Where it's mouth is on that, like we have quotas for the people who need to be under 30 at Synods and at our, at our assembly. And I feel, yeah, really grateful for how intentional they are about having, especially young people represented, not just in the sort of local congregations life and the friendship that is extremely important and happening in those places, but also like in the machinations of the community.

[00:39:00] Yeah. All of those, yeah, those big systems and, and those decisions that, yeah, they're really intentional about young people being part of that. Cause I think it it says that young people are not just like, we have to call young people like the future of the church, but Joe just made a face. But we often say, well, young people are not just the future of the church.

[00:39:21] We are the present of the church. We are in your church right now. We are probably running your kid's ministry. That's right. And I love that. Yeah, those those like quotas and that intentionality, I think really kind of backs that to say, well, like, well, you're here now, so you should be part of the decision making.

[00:39:38] Will Small: What's been your experience of this, Jo? Would you say you've had good, good experiences of that intergenerational collaboration kind of at its best? Or? Yes and no. I, as 

[00:39:50] Joanna Drayton: I said before, became a Christian at 22 and longed for a mentor, someone who'd show me, who could fill in those gaps, because I hadn't had that, you know, formation as a young person spiritual formation as a young person.

[00:40:03] And So that, that was a thing that I longed for and never was offered or didn't have the courage to ask for whatever. But, but the great things along the way have been, I started a play group at our church and asked for volunteers and they ranged from a uni student through to Marg who at 82 would come and pour our tea and sit in the kitchen and chat.

[00:40:22] So that was a beautifully intergenerational thing where we had you know, the grandma replacement for the family that didn't have one who were really drawn to. To Marg, and the young person who, who could, who had the energy to, to run around with kids at Playgroup and set up and do whatever for us so that, that, that Playgroup wouldn't be what it is, and it's still going years, you know, years after we started it, and it wouldn't be what it is without that contribution of the generations, because community is important, and because all are welcome within community.

[00:40:52] my particular church community. And we run a young adult Bible study group at our place for, I looked at the list the other day, there's 35 people on the list who come and go, which is amazing. And I keep saying, oh, surely you're sick of us old people. And they go, no, can we keep coming? And I go, yeah, yeah, of course you can.

[00:41:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll keep cooking or keep whatever. They, they see value in that. So I go, well, whilst you see value in it, I'll keep doing it. So I think the sense of community and cross generational stuff Holds so much value in the community of, of God's church. 

[00:41:26] Will Small: I think that's huge. And I think when we, if we kind of think back to the frustrations we may feel across generations, a lot of the time, I wonder how much of those frustrations are just misunderstandings that when we actually spend time with people of generations, like you're saying at the beginning, can we realize, Oh, actually the way that you're approaching the Bible is more similar to how I would want to approach it than I have maybe stereotyped you.

[00:41:48] And I think. You know the only way that that kind of thing can be undone is in real relationships where the person in your mind is actually a person in front of you reshaping the way you think about that particular person I mean I think for me I feel incredibly grateful that. I think back on all the stages of my growing up and I did, I was basically born into a church and whether it was, you know, volunteers at kids church or youth group or, you know, kind of youth leaders, older people kind of taking an interest in me and encouraging me.

[00:42:23] I can never think of a time in my life when I didn't have people of different generations outside my family cheering me on and interested in me and curious. About me and I know that that's not everyone's experience, but I feel incredibly like that has formed. My willingness to share because there was always someone open to listening even when I look back and think what I would have said would have been very embarrassing.

[00:42:47] But they had the, the patience and the, you know, they showed up for me and I would certainly hope that in whatever form community takes for emerging generations now, I completely agree with Joe that we should be rethinking all kinds of things around how the structure of church looks. But I think fundamentally we should be aiming for getting people into rooms or spaces where they're with people who are at different stages of life.

[00:43:14] To them, and sometimes that can be offering that settled waters to more angsty generations. Sometimes that can be more innovation to those who are a little bit more maybe fixed. But yeah, I think it's only something we can benefit from kind of increasing. What's something that you would love to see maybe kind of implemented in your average church or community that could actually help to kind of heal some of those generational rifts, what is there a strategy or an idea kicking around in your mind that you think if everyone had a go at this.

[00:43:47] It could really it could 

[00:43:48] Ella Evans: really help somehow.

[00:43:53] I 

[00:43:53] Joanna Drayton: don't have a huge idea for that. But what one thing we did was We wanted to find some mentors for our young adults And so I organized a speed dating night Where we invited anyone that wanted to be a mentor and anyone that wanted a mentor and so we did that we allowed them some speed dating time to chat and work out if there was connections there where they could, you know, find some common ground and, and spend some time together.

[00:44:15] And the older people were saying, well, I don't think I've got anything to offer. And I go, but you're keen and you're enthusiastic. Come. So there's, there is still a divide. So if I could do anything, it would be to debunk some of. Those myths about the generation gap a phrase that I grew up thinking that there was some, something terrible between me and older people because there was this generation gap, which of course still exists, but understanding what those differences are, I think, helping, it can be helpful.

[00:44:47] Will Small: I love the speed dating idea as well. 

[00:44:49] Ella Evans: It was fun. It was really fun.

[00:44:55] I would still save each group, 

[00:44:58] Ken Day: congregation Worked on finding, helping each person discover what the gifts of God are within them. And then not just write it on a piece of paper, but actually promise to help them find a way to express that and support them in that and, and not to do it or anything else.

[00:45:18] But, but those things for a while, it may mean some things have to close down, but some people go, phew, we've been laboring away at this and none of us have the gift, but we just thought we had to do it. And maybe that's a boomer thing. They were doing it. So we feel we've got to keep going to be able to let it go.

[00:45:35] Also, when that's happening, to give each group or generation, however we want to put it, space to be on their own, in the midst of this, to ask questions, to express their feelings, because sometimes it doesn't always go so smoothly, it just needs someone to translate for them, in a sense. What, when they did that, this is what they meant.

[00:45:59] Ah, or can you see it from this perspective, you know, and I think there was a time where we were doing this thing called the whole people of God. And everybody was together all the time, all the ages, all the time, and there was never that chance for that age group to actually just get together on their own and celebrate, debrief, ask questions.

[00:46:24] And I think that needs to be remembered too. Allow the groups to still meet, because don't, don't fear that, they're not going to stay that way. They will have found so much life in knowing who they are and in their ministries, they won't want to stay just in their own groups, but give them that breather space to ask questions.

[00:46:43] Why is this happening? Why'd they do that? Why'd they say that? 

[00:46:47] Joanna Drayton: It gives things cross generational as well. It is. So there's so much benefit in having those conversations. Yes. That's great. What do you 

[00:46:56] Ella Evans: reckon, Ella? Yeah big question it is my job so I'm feeling the pressure I suspect something that like that every church could do that would be useful is something like super simple along the lines of like listening and then like resourcing and acting a lot of churches for example have particular mission initiatives partly because. As you were saying, you know, certain maybe older generations came to faith in charismatic movements. They remember Billy Graham. They have these mission initiatives that they're super passionate about. And they rock, but maybe it's not necessarily the thing that younger people in the church are passionate about.

[00:47:41] And I think we can slip into saying, and I'm not talking about mission generally, But like, you know, whether it's like, these are very basic, like, whether it's like a literally like a street preaching mission, or maybe it's a particular initiative, and instead of saying what yeah, what are the gifts, what are the passions of other people in this church and how could we resource and act to make that happen.

[00:48:05] Or the good of the kingdom, he said, well, the only way to do anything for the good of the kingdom is to do this initiative that some people were passionate about 20 years ago. And so that's the whole kingdom instead of, I guess, diversifying along the lines of people's gifts. Yeah, and I suspect that when you listen for the answers to that question sometimes it will clump together generationally.

[00:48:29] Maybe all the young people in your church are really passionate about a particular justice thing or this particular mission thing or this particular music thing, but yeah, I suspect you'll find that people are passionate about the same thing across generations. Which gives you whole new ways to kind of pursue, you know, gospel and life.

[00:48:46] I know at iChurch, one of the things we're just kind of like clocking now is like, hey, our young people really care about climate action, and so do our boomers. Like, they've been kind of on the like, you know, greenies, loving gardening, like, You know, being really pro climate action for decades, what a beautiful opportunity for pursuing justice together as like a common interest that we both have.

[00:49:12] Stuff like that. I don't know if that's very useful, 

[00:49:14] Will Small: but yeah, it's 

[00:49:15] Ella Evans: great. 

[00:49:15] Will Small: And I think uniting people of different generations around a common thing they care about is a really powerful way to do it. You know, if you just say we're just going to get in the room to be intergenerational. Maybe it's not as good a hook as we need everyone to be in the room or in the garden so that we can care about like protect something we all care about there's a there's a motivation that transcends the generation.

[00:49:39] Ella Evans: We've got church camp coming up and one of our sessions is. You know, we could, and at other points we will, have, you know, intergenerational sake, for the sake of it, right, we're gonna, we'll play board games or like, do, you know, music or worship together. But one of those sessions is like, hey, who wants to write letters to our local MP about climate action?

[00:49:59] Because young people often do that work in their domains, like on social media, older people often do that in, you know, their local community groups, maybe they're familiar with letter writing, but the cause is something that we all care about. So that is a great thing to sort of sit around a table with and bond over and create meaning together over, rather than just sort of, you know, awkwardly sitting there with someone a bit older than you, because you're supposed to.

[00:50:31] Will Small: I think, you know, throughout this conversation, we could just remind ourselves like some things everything is kind of always changing and nothing ever changes. Right. And everything is going through constant evolutions and cycles. And yet, at the end of the day, a lot of this stuff, you know, people's gifts will always be, be a good thing to bring more out into the open.

[00:50:53] And I wonder, you know, as we think about what Christian spirituality looks like for emerging generations, I think healthy Christian spirituality would probably look the same way that it's looked since ancient times. Right. A lot of the practices that have been there you know, they're kind of tried and true.

[00:51:09] I wonder if we can just personalize it for a moment, is there something that's particularly important to you in terms of your sense of grounding, spirituality, connection with, with God or with place or people that you would just offer as something that anybody of any generation might want to do?

[00:51:27] Benefit from dipping their toe in or, or going a little bit deeper with, is there something that is a particularly grounding part of your spirituality? That's not necessarily about your generation, although it might be something you think people of my generation or other generations would do well to lean a little bit more in 

[00:51:45] Ella Evans: here.

[00:51:52] God's got this. 

[00:51:56] Joanna Drayton: I think, I think hanging on to personal faith. I don't know if we've touched on this. The institution will always let us down. Other humans will always let us down. We've got to go back and find that, that quiet, still small voice and that, that place. That which calls us to be human, that which calls us to be in ministry, that which calls us to serve the other 

[00:52:19] Ella Evans: is always constant.

[00:52:23] Can I offer like a direct counter? But not like a but, like a yes and, for me the spiritual practice of leaning into the tradition and into, dare I say, the institution is really life giving. Like, I think particularly of in prayer life, like, the traditional prayers of the historic church, you know, the Jesus Prayer, the Lord's Prayer, the Glory Be, like and, you know, I'm a church nerd.

[00:52:47] The church has, like, you know, my blood and my bones and my guts, and it'll keep me till I'm dead in the ground, but I think leaning in to something that is by no means perfect nonetheless needs you and can,

[00:53:07] as flawed as the church is, the church is also like a testament to the faithfulness of Christ. And so leaning in, in the ways that give life and pursue Jesus, I think can also rock. 

[00:53:18] Will Small: Alongside I love the unexpected, maybe paradigm shift of the youngest person in the conversation pointing back into the depths of tradition.

[00:53:29] Ken Day: I've heard that too because our communion service, where I am at the moment, I've never been in such a traditional communion service that Sings the whole communion, the whole congregation sings the Gloria, the all these things, and I must admit, it sounds great but not, but, and so to add on to those things about seven years ago, I was through my supervisor, I was guided into meditation.

[00:53:57] So I went to. Meditation teacher and that for me has been wonderful, you know so something I've sort of been to those things where you meditate for a moment and a long since taking. But, has changed that whole thing for me and it's not for everyone, but if anyone listening thinks, 

[00:54:22] Music: Oh, 

[00:54:22] Ken Day: well, if Burma can think that, well, maybe I'll give it a go.

[00:54:27] It's meditation. And I know there's a variety of forms and I hope you find the, the one that suits you, but it's, it's just so. Coming into that still small voice as well, adding to the, the, the poets of the church who brought together the creeds and the liturgy. Ah, that, that still 

[00:54:51] Ella Evans: small voice stillness.

[00:54:57] Followed by a couple. Surely that's the Millennials gift, right? Well, that's right. I was going to offer the 

[00:55:05] Will Small: spiritual practice of a double shot flat white in the morning. First thing. Yes. Hold me together. God bless 

[00:55:11] Ella Evans: the first millennial who brought an espresso machine to church. 

[00:55:15] Will Small: I mean, if you take all three of what you just shared and you put that together, I think that's a recipe for a pretty good starting place.

[00:55:22] I think the thing that I've been finding life giving recently which is probably I'm a bit of a, you know, head heavy person thinking, reading, living in my brain and so just movement, you know, outside exercise has been the thing this year where I've been finding. Life and the, the breath of, of the spirit. But I'd encourage people of all generations, you know to keep, keep experimenting, keep being open, keep exploring both the depths of the tradition, as well as maybe the things that you haven't seen yet, because they're new innovations from emerging generations. Thank you so much. To the three of you for bearing the weight of your generation in this conversation but doing a great job of both talking to the parts of that that are real and meaningful, while also kind of reminding us that at the end of the day we're all human and we all are in progress and we can learn from and listen to anybody and, and gain something from it.

[00:56:25] Well, hopefully that episode has given you some thoughts to continue to chew. The conversation doesn't end now. It begins. Make sure that you continue to talk to your friends, family, neighbors, whoever, about the things that were raised in this episode. This was brought to you by Spiritual Misfits and the Uniting Mission and Education Pulse team.

[00:56:46] And if you go into the show notes with this episode, you can follow us on social media, join the Facebook groups, keep the conversation going.