Navigating eco-anxiety, finding ways forward with Joyce Tangi, Karina Kreminski & Jono Row

Hello again good people!

This is the second in our series of 5 collaborative conversations hosted by Spiritual Misfits and the Uniting Mission and Education Pulse team, exploring major challenges in our world today and the kind of faith that doesn’t shy away from them or just respond with unhelpful platitudes.

And this week we’re delving into a huge topic. If faith doesn’t have something to say about climate crisis, about eco anxiety, about what it means to care for and advocate for this one planet that we have — then, what good is that faith? On the other hand, how might our spirituality and the Christian tradition help ground us — literally reconnect us to the ground beneath our feet. That is what Joyce Tangi, Karina Kreminski and Jono Row join me to discuss in this episode. 

You can watch the full filmed conversation on YouTube here if that’s your jam, you can also download our accompanying discussion guide to use in your context.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Will Small: Hello again, good people. This is the second in our series of five collaborative conversations hosted by Spiritual Misfits and the Uniting Mission and Education Pulse Team. Exploring major challenges in our world today, and the kind of faith that doesn't shy away from them, or just respond with unhelpful platitudes.

[00:00:19] And this week we're delving into a huge topic. If faith doesn't have something to say about climate crisis, about eco anxiety, about what it means to care for and advocate for this one planet that we have. And what good is that faith? On the other hand, how might our spirituality and the Christian tradition help ground us, like literally reconnect us to the ground beneath our feet during these times?

[00:00:46] That is what Joyce Tangi, Karina Kreminski, and Jono Row join me to discuss in this episode. You can watch the full filmed version on YouTube, if that's your jam, you can also download an accompanying discussion guide to use in your context, head to the show notes for links to both of these. For now, let's get into it.

[00:01:11] Karina Kreminski, Jono Rowe, Joyce Tangy. Thank you so much for joining me for a conversation in this special series that we are creating. It's a collaboration between Spiritual Misfits and the Uniting Mission and Education Pulse team. We're having conversations around the kind of faith that particularly for younger emerging generations can engage honestly with the challenges of life on planet earth, in the 21st century.

[00:01:40] And so this particular conversation is going to be about what it looks like to keep faith in a world of climate crisis. of climate anxiety, of climate, There's so many things that flow out of that topic, so really grateful for each of you bringing your own experience, story, expertise, to a conversation around this.

[00:02:03] Why don't we just start, we'll just go down the line starting with Karina, and if you could each just give a sentence or two, locating who you are, and why this topic matters to you, why you're here and engaged in the conversation. 

[00:02:17] Karina Kreminski: So I'm a, Uniting Mission Education Missions Catalyst.

[00:02:22] but I also, have a little faith community in Surry Hills, in Sydney. And, what my husband and I do there is we connect with the community. We hear the longings, the hopes and the challenges that sit in that community. And, one of the things that stand out quite strongly for me is that people are wrestling with, climate change and people are very distressed about it and, don't know what to do.

[00:02:52] And we need spaces for people to be able to explore more. How 

[00:02:58] Jono Row: about yourself, Jono? yeah, so I work at Uniting, which is, the service, chaplaincy and advocacy agency of the Uniting Church in New South Wales and the ACT. my role there is the church collaboration lead for advocacy. So I work with, the advocacy team.

[00:03:16] and climate is one of our big campaigns. So we, are organizing and, advocating for big systems change. beyond just the sort of the individual, how do we, you live a more sustainable life, but like, how do we get governments and decision makers to make the big changes in our society that we need?

[00:03:34] and bringing churches along on that journey with us. Fascinating. So glad you're part of the conversation 

[00:03:40] Will Small: and how about yourself, Joyce? 

[00:03:42] Joyce Tangi: Hi, everyone. Joyce Tangi, part of the, Uniting Mission and Education Pulse Team, in ministry with young people. And why am I here? I am a second generation, Tongan Australian, and the Pacific is at the, the front of the climate, crisis in our world.

[00:04:06] And, Yeah, when you were mentioning, anxiety, I literally already got me in my feels. so I'm really excited to be here today, but also I, live in Western Sydney. when it gets hot, and, so yeah, really great to be part of this conversation. 

[00:04:31] Will Small: Great to have you in it, Joyce.

[00:04:33] And yeah, I spend a fair bit of time with young people, and if you do talk about climate anxiety, it's such a, it's such a felt thing. I'm sure that cuts across generations, but particularly for young people today. It's a new phenomenon that maybe didn't exist in previous generations. When we think about Christian kind of theology, in some ways, Christian theology has been responsible for really harmful views towards the planet.

[00:04:59] We have some people who have taken the view that the Bible gives permission to dominate the planet, or we have views around the rapture and we're all just going to get out of here. So who cares about the earth? At the same time, the Christian tradition and other theological kind of frameworks give us a really.

[00:05:20] high regard for our role in terms of caretaking and stewarding the earth and seeing it as part of God's good creation. I'm wondering if you just reflect for a moment for each of you, is there one of those that you feel like you've experienced more or has been more of a shaping force in terms of your engagement with Christianity in the church?

[00:05:43] Has Christianity, in your experience, helped you to want to protect the earth, or has it disconnected you from it?

[00:05:57] Anything that brings 

[00:05:58] Jono Row: out for you, Jono? yeah, I think I've experienced sort of both sides of that equation at different times in my life, because I've spent, a large amount of time in two different church traditions. growing up in my teens and young adult, you I was in a Pentecostal, a faith, community, and then it was in my adulthood that I found the Uniting Church and certainly in, in the years that I was in the Pentecostal church, I can't really remember any sermon ever on kind of the environment or, in the way that a lot, we talk about in the church, in the United Church now, whereas here in, in the time I've been in the United Church, it's a frequent topic of discussion is care for creation, stewardship. I don't think I'd ever heard the word stewardship in my past church life, except for like financial stewardship, looking after our money, never about looking after earth and creation.

[00:06:57] I've definitely seen both sides of that. and. I think even, yeah, going back to money and this financial stewardship and that, the Pentecostal background I was in, prosperity theology was a big part of that, that the biggest blessing God can give us is to live a life of wealth, which really, creates this culture of quite, conspicuous consumption of, trying to look like you've got, it all, which, it's very much this, culture of consumption that I think is, responsible for a lot of the climate issues that we're facing today, right?

[00:07:37] Like we, the three R's, reduce, reuse, recycle, reduce is the first one, it's the most important. We need to just consume less rather than trying to recycle a bunch of stuff we bought that we didn't really need in the first place. So yeah, I think where I, so the, journey I've been on with my faith, I think finding the United Church was part of finding a.

[00:08:11] expression of my faith that aligned more with the values that I, I had, which to me were still God inspired. Like it was, even though the environment wasn't being, discussed in the church background I was in, we were, to me, it was just very clear that looking after the environment was a matter of justice and my Christian faith, drove me to pursue justice and in whatever forms I could see, 

[00:08:41] Will Small: Yeah, it sounds like you had a deep intuition that, you needed to find a spiritual home where that intuition was affirmed. Yep. the other thing I love in what you just shared is that there is this interconnectedness and if we're going to have a conversation about climate, of course it's 

[00:08:59] a conversation about money and consumption and there are all these other areas that we may not necessarily think of as connected, but very connected.

[00:09:09] what, did some of that, reflecting on maybe your experiences bring up for you, Joyce? How, has the earth or creation been viewed in your experience? 

[00:09:18] Joyce Tangi: I think for, myself, I've always been taught to be grateful, living off the land. Just being all of what you have around you.

[00:09:31] but it wasn't until just, recently within like high school and uni that, the advocacy for climate justice came about. And, like Jono, I. Church wasn't always about, loving and supporting the environment and stuff, but it was always the dwelling in God's creation was always there. And when I go back home to the kingdom of Tonga, the ocean just speaks on another level that I've learned to appreciate, learn to know that God's beauty is within all things.

[00:10:11] Which is why, and I love to see, there's a call to action now when we, especially with young people that, we're standing all together and we're loving together. And I think there's an awe, there's, a special awe in that, that I see now in, my Christian faith that, yeah, continues that journey.

[00:10:38] Will Small: Love that choice. Karina, what's been your experience as you think about some of those different messages over the years? 

[00:10:44] Karina Kreminski: Yeah, I think, Christianity still has a deep suspicion of nature, and I don't think it's something that we've completely shaken off. even though we're talking about it more and the environment is clearly telling us that we've gone way overboard when it comes to consumerism and exploiting and taking from the earth.

[00:11:05] and I love the way that these days we're even questioning the language of stewardship and saying, even when we use the word stewardship, we're still putting ourselves at the head and saying, I can take what I want. We can do what we want because we are still in control. And so I think we still need to move towards, thinking about an interconnection between, humanity and plants and animals and the whole, of, what we see rather than seeing ourselves as being on top.

[00:11:39] And so I think, I still think that when we talk about nature in this way, we get accused, for example, of being pantheists, and, other names. And I still think we have a long way to go to shake that off. Yeah, 

[00:11:55] Will Small: that's a great point. And yeah, it's so true that even when we can be moving in like a more positive direction in the conversation, we can still position ourselves as separate and the earth as this kind of externality.

[00:12:06] This commodity, potentially, rather than saying, what I suppose a lot of First Nations cultures would say is that we are of the earth, rather than the other way around, we emerge from her. so I think you're right. There's a lot of, work to be done there. And I suppose part of what this conversation is aiming to do is to help people ask those questions.

[00:12:27] How do I think about this by default? And if faith and spirituality, particularly in the Christian tradition, is something that I'm going to use to guide me through life here and now, what are some of those assumptions maybe we need to challenge? I've touched before on this word climate anxiety, eco anxiety, as this kind of new, phenomenon in the mental health kind of language.

[00:12:53] is that something that you would say you have ever experienced or that your peers have experienced? And if you'd be willing, what might that have looked like? Joyce, you touched on that at the beginning. What does eco anxiety or climate anxiety look like for you? 

[00:13:10] Joyce Tangi: it's real. Number one, it's so real.

[00:13:12] And, In spaces where I get to gather with young people and, we, take priority in, school strikes and talking with young people about, sustainability and what does, climate injustice look like. I think getting into a room with young people, you can see heart, You can see, anxiety. You can see we need to, we need, we're called to action.

[00:13:44] And, for myself, it was a few years ago. Tonga was hit by a cyclone and, couldn't go to Tonga. And it was a few years and then COVID and all the things. I got to go to Tonga last year. And ton. one of the islands that had been hit by the cyclone, tsunami, they had to leave their home and they were all, they all traveled by boat to the main island of, Tonga dpo.

[00:14:15] And when I went to Tonga, I had seen all these new houses look exactly the same being built. I was like, Oh, what's that for? It was, for all those families that had to be displaced and move into the big island. And for me, that was a first shift of holy crap, like displacement, not knowing when you're going to go back home, families, children, grandpas.

[00:14:46] And they were moving into places looking exactly the same. Villages outside of the city. So in the bush towns where, it would be like, you just don't have the resources that you have back home. And knowing that it would be a while for them to even go back home. It was, for me, I was just like, it just sucked.

[00:15:12] Hey. And, and it's real and you go back to Tonga, the beach that we, I grew up on, on my, where my grandparents lived. It's just all, it's just wash. It's just ocean because the tides has now come closer. And You hear about it all the time from a lot of people, like the tides are coming in and stuff.

[00:15:36] But when you get to experience and go back home, it's a real thing. And to have, when you come back and then you see all the kids just like chanting and advocating and wanting to stand in solidarity with our brothers and sisters in the Pacific, there's such a longing in heart, let's do this because it's real, let's do this because we're all brothers and sisters and we're all together.

[00:16:01] And yeah, it's. It's a, there's a shift in emotionally, physically, mentally, that, we know that not everyone's in the, not everyone is in the best place and how can we love and support each other. yeah. 

[00:16:16] Will Small: I think that touches on what Karina was saying about our interconnectedness with the earth. And actually when we see more disruption in the environment, that's mirrored in communities because maybe because of that connection, We have an anxious earth. John, I'm interested as someone who, does a lot of that work in the advocacy space. anxiety can be really debilitating, crippling, and it can stop us. It can overwhelm us and stop us from doing anything. And yet, I imagine that lots of people that are activists or advocating in that space have a familiarity with those feelings of anxiety.

[00:16:58] Jono Row: Yeah. 

[00:16:58] Will Small: What's going on there? What are some of the dynamics that can help people maybe to manage that and still show up in a protest? Yeah. 

[00:17:06] Jono Row: Yeah. Big time. like Joyce said, the anxiety is very real. and Especially when you are working in an advocacy setting where you're thinking about it all the time, it, can be, a really powerful feeling because sometimes with climate and what we find is that the more you think about it and the more you look into it and the more you realize how dire the situation is, the scarier it gets.

[00:17:32] The scarier it all, gets. to an extent, ignorance is bliss. if you really start to, grapple with the science and the reality, it can be really overwhelming. We've had, I can remember like planning meetings, at work where we're just talking about the next few months, what we're doing and just by the end of the meeting, we're all just, You can feel the tension of just us really like feeling a bit overwhelmed with how big of a problem this is and how tiny, we are as part of this sort of global movement and, it can, it's easy to fall into kind of feelings of hopelessness and overwhelm.

[00:18:06] I think what, does keep us going where we do find hope is just focusing on the progress that is being made, focusing on, and, centering ourselves in community. Like we are working on this. Together, I'm working on it with my colleagues in this team. We're working on it with the broader Uniting Church.

[00:18:28] The Uniting Church is working on it with the broader climate movement globally, trying to just remind ourselves that we're not alone in this, I think is really, powerful. and just focusing on, Trying to dream and imagine of what the future could look like. there's, sometimes where we can get bogged down in discussions about climate change is we go, either everything's going to be terrible, or we're going to have to make a bunch of sacrifices to save ourselves anyway.

[00:19:04] And both those scenarios don't really sound very promising. So I think, thinking about trying to let ourselves dream and imagine there's this, climate activist that I, I've been following the last couple years. Her name's, Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. She's a marine biologist. and I just want to name her because this is her idea.

[00:19:25] I don't want to steal it, but she, the big focus of her climate advocacy is this question of what if we get it right? what if we let ourselves Dream and imagine of beautiful, just, fair, sustainable world where we have, created an economy that meets everybody's needs, where we've listened to our First Nations communities and the wisdom that they have.

[00:19:49] a world where, yeah, we, are living And as Karina's mentioned, not removing ourselves from nature, but understanding that we are a part of it. so I think rather than dwelling on this, fear and hopelessness, just focusing our minds on, on, what if we get it right? What if we let ourselves imagine what the future could look like?

[00:20:13] so feeling that motivation of running towards that idea rather than running away from this imagined future where everything is awful and terrible. 

[00:20:22] Will Small: Yeah, that's great. Amen. It makes me think, about, Karina, I've seen you in recent years, post a bit, share a bit, speak a bit about the concept of wonder, and I feel like actually a sense of wonder, at the natural world, is so important if we're gonna, if we're gonna actually care for and, get it right, what does some of that look like for you, and how do you see that intersection maybe between spirituality?

[00:20:54] a sense of wonder and the way we then, engage with systems that are often geared against, preserving 

[00:21:03] Karina Kreminski: these 

[00:21:04] Will Small: things. 

[00:21:06] Karina Kreminski: I attended a workshop recently, which was speaking about, a Threutopian perspective. And that's reminding me, about what Jono was just talking about, that often we don't, Move towards utopian perspectives or dystopian perspectives.

[00:21:24] Everything's going to be fine. Don't worry about it. everything's devastating. We're heading towards extinction. Let's forget it all. And This was in a climate change context, talking about a Threutopian narrative, which is exactly what Jonathan was talking about. And that is to really focus on what we can do now without having an overly optimistic view because we actually don't know what the future is going to be.

[00:21:47] We don't know if we're heading towards extinction and we don't know if we can make things better. but just doing what you can now. And, we were asking that workshop to write our own. Throutopian narrative, our own story, and all of us in this little group started talking about wonder and started talking about, listening to our environment, connecting with our environment, being able to learn from First Nations people and, others about how it is that we can actually engage and connect with nature a lot more deeply than, we do in the West.

[00:22:22] And we all decided that, that we were a way through this mess, just focusing on what we can do now, connecting with earth and nature a lot, more now. And in a sense that can really help with the burnout that a lot of advocates, experience. I, go to climate cafes where we discuss, climate change.

[00:22:45] Distress, we call it. And, there are a lot of advocates and activists in those climate cafes. And, one thing that they say does help them is actually just connecting with nature. not only doing the activistic stuff, which can really, be overwhelming sometimes, but actually connecting with nature and, they find that really helpful.

[00:23:07] And I find that, really helpful, as well. Yeah. 

[00:23:11] Will Small: I think when we do that can be a part of shifting, the way that we have thought about, maybe God and humanity and the earth as very separate categories. And yet if we have a more integrated view of things, we would say that, everything is held within the divine creative being that is God.

[00:23:33] And, that, that kind of brings it all together in a way that when we engage with nature, we engage with God. And when we do that, we maybe mend some of the, the broken apart kind of fractured elements of theology that we have internalized or inherited or picked up. you spoke a little bit about this Joyce actually, you spoke about that kind of sense of going home and connecting with place and seeing God in those places.

[00:24:03] Do you want to share a little bit more about, some of those experiences where you have seen that the line between the divine and, creation is actually maybe a lot sinner or more blurry than, we have often conceived of it as? 

[00:24:19] Joyce Tangi: I think, yeah, I think when you step into spaces where.

[00:24:23] You get to be in awe of God's creation. Like it just takes you back to roots. Why God created this for us. and then we forget when we be destructive and then, all the, injustice things that our government continues to, to do. And you're in awe of God's creation and then it just makes you want to, it just makes you want to.

[00:24:53] Activate more to be more like, why are we continuously doing things that are just harmful? I just wrong, like we're standing together, but there's a feeling of not being heard and that, and then when you're standing and your faith, just. It just motivates you to do more. And I love working like with the uniting group, in things that we can passionately do together, being outside together, walking outside.

[00:25:23] Like it's. It just activates, yeah, it's the community that we find and you know that it's we're in the right place or we're doing the right things, we're having the right conversations where we know that more people, engage and listen and there's a passionate, special moment in that and that you're not just doing it and it's, you're in a space where we're in it together.

[00:25:55] And I think when we, dwell in those spaces, there's, it brings hope in times and in thoughts where sometimes it's not even like government, when we sit with government officials, sometimes they, tend, especially the young people, it's in the, Oh, we're doing stuff already. And that just doesn't cut it.

[00:26:18] those kinds of conversations and cut it, but then there's so much heart in the communities that we, we belong to and they're doing so much. So yeah. 

[00:26:30] Will Small: Hello friends, just popping in here for a quick moment and then we'll get back into the conversation. Did you know that we have a Facebook group for listeners of the podcast?

[00:26:42] We'd love you to join us if you aren't already in that. You can also visit spiritualmisfits. com. au for other resources we're creating, as well as links to some recommended communities and counsellors if you need to speak to someone about your Spiritual Misfit journey. Spiritual Misfits is brought to you by Meeting Ground Church.

[00:27:00] If you want to support the podcast or other work that we're doing, please There are details on the website for how to do that as well. So grateful for everyone who supports this work. And one of the easiest ways to do that is just to pass it along. Share this podcast episode with a friend or even an enemy.

[00:27:18] Maybe that's what Jesus meant by loving your enemies. Share good content with them. All right, let's get back into it.

[00:27:30] I'm hearing throughout this conversation that there is really this importance in our connection with others as we face. some of these very overwhelming challenges, but also our connection with place, our connection with, earth. And I wonder if we think about young people and the world in which, people are growing up in today, young people are probably typically spending less time outside.

[00:27:59] And there's the potential as well for more social fragmentation, more time on screens, less time in, in those community spaces and in those kind of outdoor spaces. And I just wonder, if we're going to help to instill, a deep sense of interconnectedness and solidarity with each other and with the planet.

[00:28:24] how do we do that in a world where potentially people are more disconnected from nature and each other than ever? That's a huge question, but have, any of you seen anything or would you have any things you would love to see in terms of like for a gen Z or even a, eight year old, today, what are some of the ingredients we need to help build early in terms of community and connection with place?

[00:28:54] Jono Row: I'm remembering even just during COVID how much, people were discovering nature in their own neighborhood. Like we, think, Oh, we all live in cities. And if you want to be in nature, you've got to go out to a national park, go out to the bush. but when we weren't allowed to go more than five Ks from home and we were otherwise stuck inside and out, Desperate to be among trees and fresh air.

[00:29:16] I was just saw so many posts on people's, Facebook and Instagram of just them discovering little pockets of nature that they could walk to in their own neighborhood. and in the process, one of my, as awful and difficult as COVID was for a bunch of reasons, there's all these weird little silver linings that I look back on.

[00:29:32] One of the most wonderful memories is just being out one day and just seeing how many people were out in the park and this sense of, community, that I got from it, because you also knew that they're all your actual neighbors because we're not allowed to go very far from home. So we're normally, we're all stuck inside.

[00:29:52] not stuck inside, but we just, we spend our time inside or we commute across the city to go out, somewhere else. Suddenly we were all outside in our own neighborhood, seeing our neighbors, connecting with the nature around us. And it was this like weirdly beautiful moment among all the kind of chaos and despair of, what that pandemic was.

[00:30:10] And, We've just very quickly lost that again, and then we've, rushed back to doing things the way they were, and it would be lovely to spend, More time, with that kind of practice of, being connected to the place you're in, and the people who are around you and the nature, that's around you and recognizing that we're all part of nature as well, and just part of 

[00:30:34] Will Small: us.

[00:30:35] That's a beautiful reflection and I'm sure lots of people if they're listening or watching this. Will have their own moments like you shared. I just literally thought of a moment where I just noticed a caterpillar 

[00:30:45] Jono Row: just 

[00:30:45] Will Small: crawling across the top step at my place. And it was like, I had the thought, this caterpillar has no idea what's going on.

[00:30:52] COVID or masks or things like that. and yet it's there for me to walk past or to pause and to observe and to engage with. Karina, do you have thoughts around, what it looks like to maybe recover? I feel like a lot of what you've talked about recently has been this recovery of maybe a more mystical or a sense of the sacred in the ordinary places.

[00:31:16] What's that been looking like for you in Surrey Hills? 

[00:31:19] Karina Kreminski: Place is really important, and my hope and my prayer is that we rediscover that. And it's not only for a short period, like what happened with the pandemic. And I was very hopeful that our habits would have changed after that. But, I think they have to some extent, I think, there's two things going on in our society.

[00:31:39] People are running away from community and then people are running to community and hungry for it. And, we sit in that tension. Everybody craves for community and longs for community. there are groups that have started up where people can just sit in parks together and stare at each other eye to eye and they're strangers and they stare at each other because they're.

[00:32:01] They've lost the capacity to make eye contact because we're just looking at screens. So there are offerings out there and there are people doing things, yet there's something within us as well that runs away from that. And for me, it's my frustration and also my curiosity levels I don't understand why we do that.

[00:32:20] sometimes when I explore it within myself, I get it. Like we're exhausted and there's so much going on and we're juggling so many things. But I, do think that it is to do with our spirituality. And, we need to put into place some spiritual disciplines that, have titles like, Watching the caterpillar walk past or just looking at our neighbor's faces, they need to be seen as spiritual disciplines as well.

[00:32:47] Not only Bible reading, not only prayer, not only going to church or whatever that might be, but some other activities that are outward oriented in this way and connect us again. And I just want to say for people who have that inkling and want to engage in this to music. Keep at it and keep trying and keep putting yourself out there because it's ultimately I think it's what we all want.

[00:33:10] That connection. Yeah. 

[00:33:13] Joyce Tangi: I love hearing that. Karina cause I. I long to hear the stories that come out of the communities where they're doing something different to enhance themselves outside and to hear the Caterpillar and just the face to face, you need to be like, Be confidently courageous and make the mistake, make the, take the journey, like to be in community, whether it's the wider step or whether it's in our own, in our locals, I just think that's correct, like the courageousness in that and to hear that from somewhere else.

[00:33:53] That can spark more, conversations and more action. So yeah, I love it. 

[00:33:58] Karina Kreminski: And partner with people. So we're partnering with, a friend of mine who's Aboriginal, who will be putting on a deep listening workshop for us at the neighborhood center. And so this is our attempt to say community, here it is a deep listening workshop, come and learn how to listen well from First Nations people.

[00:34:18] And so yeah, putting stuff out there and partnering with others as well. 

[00:34:21] Jono Row: So good. 

[00:34:22] Karina Kreminski: Yeah. 

[00:34:23] Will Small: We talked about, if we think about the church, which is a big, thing, we use the word the church, but, the church has ways of thinking about things, and it also has ways of practicing or doing things.

[00:34:39] And I wonder if you think about, again, the kind of church you would want your grandkids to be a part of, or the kind of church that you would want any young person growing up in Australia today to be a part of. What would you hope would be there in the ideas space? What would be some of the key kind of themes that you would want a young person to hear repeated over and over again growing up?

[00:35:01] And what would be some of the practices that you would hope they would be formed in, or that they would learn to do almost by habit? As we think about these things, what, do we wanna see maybe shift in the church in terms of the, things we think and then the things that we do. Are there any ones that come to mind for you that you think, if I had my chance to just say this on a megaphone that every church to hear, what, would be some of those?

[00:35:37] Do any come to mind for you? Jono? Thinking about again, some of the things that maybe have been learnings from the advocacy space. 

[00:35:55] Jono Row: I think, I wanna, I'd hope that we continue to build a better understanding of the way all of our kind of fates and fortunes are interconnected, with, us and other people, inside of the church or outside of it, with us and nature, I think the, And this is a bit of a tangent, but, one of my constant frustrations with kind of conversations about climate and the environment, we've touched on this already, is it does treat it as a separate thing.

[00:36:28] Oh, we're saving the environment for the environment's sake, like we're doing it, I don't know, for the whales or the turtles or whatever. Rather than recognizing that we are. part of and dependent on the environment just as much as it's probably more than it's dependent on us. The environment will survive in some form, even if we make it uninhabitable for ourselves.

[00:36:53] I would just love to see, our conversations in church continue to build that holistic view of, the world of if we are, for us to build our connection with God, I think means building our connection with each other, whether it's someone that shares our faith and beliefs or not, recognizing just our shared humanity, our interdependence on each other.

[00:37:22] and like I said, with, the wider natural world as well. It's a great reminder. 

[00:37:29] Karina Kreminski: Have church outside more. Just little things like that. Think about the way we can do church differently. One of my roles at Uniting Mission Education is helping people to do church differently, alternative expressions of church, fresh expressions of church.

[00:37:51] We have a forest chaplain in the Uniting Church in Bellingen who engages with the community there that is at battles with the logging industry and has a little church under a tree. do church differently. They're crazy. 

[00:38:06] Joyce Tangi: Yeah. I think for me, if I had the chance for a megaphone, I would definitely call her and be like, let's embrace the other.

[00:38:14] embrace something that. That you're not used to, shake it up or open the doors to more wisdom, not like emphasizing on young people, but just, yeah, just being community without something that you don't already know. And I think there's so much hope in that. And, yeah, just let's embrace different.

[00:38:42] Yeah. That's what I would say. 

[00:38:45] Will Small: Love it. It's embraced different. Yeah. I love the, it's so simple really to think about having you gathering outside. Some people that might seem like absolute mind blowing shift, but really it's not, that difficult. Is it? 

[00:38:59] Jono Row: Yeah. God so clearly, created us to be in and of nature.

[00:39:04] there's studies that, show, that shades of blue and green can relieve I love it. Thank you. Anxiety and improve your mental wellbeing. where is there an abundance of blue and green? It is in outdoors, in the natural world, sunshine on your face, fresh air, in your lungs, if you spend a bit too much time online, eventually you'll see people tell you to go outside and touch grass.

[00:39:28] Like that clearly is just reminding us, we need to reconnect with, nature. and that's clearly how God. Designed us to be. 

[00:39:38] Will Small: I think throughout this conversation as well, there's been this sense, I think, it's impossible to divorce, the, inward and the outward kind of journey around this stuff and the need to both be contemplative and immersed in our own personal experience of wonder and awe, as well as then that need to rock up and maybe be part of a protest or be part of some form of advocacy and that is a conversation that, is often again, can be one where we separate these two parts, there's the activists and there's the contemplatives rather than seeing those as actually two sides of the same coin.

[00:40:17] And I think balancing the two of those and seeing them as interconnected is this inner work that we need to do. Which can be difficult as we come towards the end of this conversation. I just wonder, is there anything you found that helps you to keep those two sides, in rhythm, anything that you have found within the tradition or, within other spaces of wisdom that has just been like either a regular practice or.

[00:40:45] something that grounds you that enables you to keep, using your voice in that sort of outward way, as well as being able to sit, with some of the discomfort that this topic does cause in the inner kind of landscape, are there any things you see that help to hold those two things together in your life or in your communities?

[00:41:14] Jono Row: you just said sitting with a discomfort and that's kind of part of it. Like we, it's so easy and so tempting, to just constantly distract yourself with everything. And, we have smartphones now that, have, any kind of distraction you could possibly want 24 hours of the day. I, for my master's degree, did some peace and conflict studies units and, one of them was about, peace of mind.

[00:41:45] So it was about how we need a sense of inner peace to build peace in the world. and an assignment was to, reflect on what inner peace means to you and practice it and write about it. And so I challenged myself to go out into nature and I just sat. For two hours and did absolutely nothing, which, was uncomfortable.

[00:42:07] but it was me realizing, yeah, I never do nothing. Like I, even if I'm relaxing at home, I'm, I'm still doing something. I'm watching TV. I'm, reading a book, I'm playing a video game. Even if I go for a walk, I'm usually listening to a podcast or some music or something. Like I, I far too rarely give my mind the complete kind of, piece to actually, do that deep introspection and reflection, which can be uncomfortable.

[00:42:40] because if you, we need to interrogate our feelings of discomfort to figure out where they're coming from and what they're telling us to do. So even if we're thinking about climate anxiety, it's so tempting just to run away from that and, Put it in a box and not think about it. But if we, can sit with it, figure out, why am I feeling anxious?

[00:43:02] What is that driving me to do? and, go do it. 

[00:43:07] Will Small: It's a great example. Cause that really is, that is about the inner, being able to sit with yourself. But then the more you listen to that, the more you will be informed around how you engage beyond yourself. I

[00:43:23] Karina Kreminski: think it's about knowing yourself as well. are you more somebody that's geared towards action or contemplation and, accepting that. And if you are somebody who's more contemplative, that's your contribution. if you are something, somebody that's more action oriented, that's your contribution.

[00:43:40] but also thinking the other as well, knowing that if you do tend more towards contemplation, then trying something activistic, I think as well. yeah, I think that's. That can be really helpful, just knowing who you are and being, at peace, with who you are. Yeah. 

[00:44:00] Joyce Tangi: For me, knowing if I don't, I, I recognize always that, within everyone and every individual, you have gifts and skills from God.

[00:44:13] And I love searching, wisdom from people, whether it's about particular topics, but knowing that, people are around me knowing, Oh gosh, I need, to go seek that person's wisdom. I need to go sit and listen. And I need to just sit and be in awe of that person's wisdom. And I think, being in those spaces then allows me to.

[00:44:42] Be the hands and feet that we are called to be, being enriched by people around me and nature around me and knowing that I'm not on my own, helps with a sense of the discomfort that, that sits within all of us. yeah. 

[00:45:05] Will Small: I love that choice. to all three of you, thank you so much. This conversation for me has been very hopeful and grounding without being naive.

[00:45:16] none of us are sitting here saying we know how the future unfolds or that we can all just kick back and forget about it. But I do think that as we remind ourselves around, if we're going to have a faith, surely one of the most basic things it ought to offer us is hope.

[00:45:32] Jono Row: Yeah. 

[00:45:32] Will Small: And a hope that is again, not about certainty, but is about a kind of motivating action towards the good. so thank you for helping to bring that to me and hopefully to others who listen and engage with this. I'd love to give you each just one final sentence, the final sentence you would want to leave people with as either an encouragement, an affirmation, a call to action.

[00:45:55] You can take a moment to think about it, but something concise that coming out of this kind of conversation, you would encourage people to, to dwell on or to sit with for a little longer. 

[00:46:07] Karina Kreminski: Somebody said to me recently, that they like the word hope, but they like the word courage better. And I think, beginning to really understand that and like that, hope is really important, and courage is very important these days.

[00:46:23] So have the courage, as we've been saying, to speak out, to act out, to connect, to seek those wise people. 

[00:46:29] Jono Row: just get outside, touch some grass, sit with some discomfort, explore your kind of inner state of mind. To help prepare yourself to, tackle these big issues. I 

[00:46:48] Joyce Tangi: love it. just some listening, whether you're listening to nature, listening to wisdom, be able to sit and do some deep listening.

[00:47:01] Will Small: Beautiful. Thank you, Joyce, Jono, Karina. Thank you, Will. Thank you. 

[00:47:11] hopefully that episode has given you some thoughts to continue to chew the conversation. It doesn't end now, it begins. Make sure that you continue to talk to your friends, family, neighbours, whoever, about the things that were raised in this episode.

[00:47:25] This was brought to you by Spiritual Misfits and the Uniting Mission and Education Pulse Team. And if you go into the show notes with this episode, you can follow us on social media, join the Facebook groups, keep the conversation going.