Racial injustice and the Church with Nathan Tyson, Radhika Sukumar-White and Leisl Homes

Hello good people, 

Welcome to the third conversation in our five episode mini-series with UME’s Pulse team. Over the last two weeks we’ve explored generational divides and climate crisis, eco anxiety and the like. 

This week another big conversation. What does it mean to keep faith in a world of racial injustice? Are people of faith in Australia today able to honestly grapple with racism in our history and our present moment? Why does it seem like the church is often no better than the rest of society in this regard? And what might it look like to continue the work of decolonising Christianity and creating anti-racist faith spaces?

This is a big conversation — so much bigger than this podcast episode — but here to spark some of your thinking around these questions I’m joined by Nathan Tyson, Radhika Sukumar-White and Leisl Homes.

Watch this episode on Youtube here.

Download the accompanying discussion guide here. 

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Transcript

Will Small:  Liesl Homes, Radhika Sukumar-White and Nathan Tyson. Thank you so much for joining me. For a conversation that is going to be part of a series of conversations between the Spiritual Misfits podcast and Uniting Mission and Education's Pulse team, we're talking about what faith looks like for Gen Z, for emerging generations, for young people, and the kind of faith that is able to grapple with what life looks like on planet earth in the 21st century.

[00:01:16] Thank you And we know that there are some major challenges. that if faith doesn't have something to say to those, then I guess what, what, what's the point of that faith or what are the chances that faith has of, of lasting. And so this particular conversation within this series of conversation is, is going to be around what it looks like to keep faith in a world of racial injustice.

[00:01:40] I wonder if each of you would be happy just to kind of locate yourself within this conversation, maybe just introduce yourself and your context and why this theme is significant to you. Lisa, are you happy to kick us off? 

[00:01:54] Leisl Homes: Sure. Why not? I am born in Australia, white, didn't know I was white until I started working with Aboriginal people.

[00:02:02] Grew up in country Victoria and then moved to Melbourne where the high school I went to had 97 percent non English speaking background. Yeah, have done a lot of different things, really love different cultures and studying for the ministry. 

[00:02:19] Will Small: Wonderful. Thanks for being part of this chat, Lisa.

[00:02:21] Leisl Homes: And married to a very awesome Aboriginal man. 

[00:02:23] Radhika Sukumar-White: I'm Radhika she, her, I am a Sri Lankan Tamil Australian. So my parents migrated out here from the North of Sri Lanka in the mid seventies, just as the civil war was, was kind of erupting. And had us kids in Canberra. So I grew up there. I've lived in Sydney for close to 20 years.

[00:02:39] I've been a minister of the word for about nine. And I'm married to a, a white man and we have, we have one child. I've also just completed the end of my master's in theology where my thesis was focused on, on unceded land stuff. So I guess I'm, I'm coming into this conversation with that in the back of my mind, the study that I've done.

[00:03:00] Will Small: Thanks so much for being part of this Radhika. Nathan? 

[00:03:05] Nathan Tyson: Where to start? So I'm an Aboriginal man I've spent most of my life in Sydney sort of Anawon Gomoroi background in terms of heritage I went to boarding school in Lismore, Murrah's father's Catholic boarding school, so sort of church every day and twice on Sundays fairly literally but yeah, I think that was a Murrah's father's school, so quite a focus on Mary and compassion and justice.

[00:03:29] Which probably was quite formative and I think more recently, I'm, I'm just about to complete the Diploma of Theological Studies. I think things like contextual theology and liberation theology really probably where my head goes when I, when I think about faith and the why and the how and the, you know, how do you keep going?

[00:03:47] It's those things that 

[00:03:49] Will Small: keep me going. Yeah. I mean, for some people, myself included, the discovery of those things, it's, it's completely re enlivens what Christian spirituality and faith looks like and how it's shaped. As we would all know, we don't sort of receive faith in a vacuum. It doesn't just fall out of the sky and into our heads.

[00:04:07] We receive it in contexts and often Christian faith has been deeply intermingled with colonialism and patriarchy and white supremacy. In what ways do you feel like each of you have come to witness or have personally experienced that throughout your journey? I know that's a big question. Maybe if we start at the other end, Nathan, are, are those things that you've witnessed or experienced?

[00:04:31] Sorry, which things? I suppose the intermingling of Christian faith with an inherent view that there is, I guess, a racial hierarchy in the world, or that there is sort of a superiority of certain people's position in, in communities. 

[00:04:47] Nathan Tyson: I suppose, I think, you know, hearing about the Gospels, one of the things that's dawned on me in sort of more recent adult life is that, you know, I've always been a fairly introverted, sort of quiet person and I've always tried to live my faith through the doing, through the how I act towards others, how I, you know, trying to help others and that sort of thing.

[00:05:06] But it dawned on me that the only reason I had that faith was because someone shared the Gospels with me. So I've, I've tried to more recently make an effort to share. The Gospels with other people in, in the ways I can rather than just assuming that they know, because if someone, if I hadn't heard them.

[00:05:23] I probably wouldn't have the faith. So I think it's, for me, as I've gotten older, it's, it's that recognition and learning and, and thinking, no, there is work to do. And it's not always easy work. And the other thing I think is that hearing the Gospels and particularly possibly hearing it from our father.

[00:05:42] With that sort of Marist compassionate angle on a lot of sermons and things, there are also some fire and brimstone ones, of course, but a lot of those priests were quite compassionate. So, hearing the stories of Jesus standing up to authority, standing up for what was right and just and fair.

[00:06:00] Regardless of cost, I think was a pretty big inspiration in my life to, to do what's right even though sometimes you don't want to because it's hard. 

[00:06:10] Will Small: Radhika, do you feel like the kind of faith you inherited were there times when you, you looked at it and realised that there were some of those infusions of maybe colonialism or patriarchy or some of these other, you know, sort of big words that can just kind of come almost baked in to the faith we receive?

[00:06:27] Yeah. 

[00:06:28] Radhika Sukumar-White: Yes. Short answer. Yes. I assume you want more than that. So I've been part of the Uniting Church my whole life. When my parents migrated, they, they found a church first and then they found a place to live second. It was so integral to them. And the church that they found a home in happened to be a reasonably progressive church even by Uniting Church standards.

[00:06:42] Like the first minister I remember was a woman. There were queer couples in the congregation who seemed to be just as comfortable as my parents were in the pews, and it was a congregation very focused on justice, particularly around asylum seeker stuff. But even so, growing up in that church, which was also very multicultural, there was some things that I look back on that I think, Oh, actually, colonialism and patriarchy was still very present in context like that.

[00:07:06] And that's continued all through my life and even up until today. So, you know, the expectation of good behavior as part of Christian formation. And I think that's a, that's an an inheritance of the relationship between church and state where good citizenship was part of. Discipleship formation, you know, what it means to yeah, be a good person in society or contribute to society in a particular way.

[00:07:28] What it means to be Christian and patriotic, you know, had to be intermingled, I think, as part of my childhood. And then I became the token brown person on a lot of committees and I was a poster child for a long time as a young adult because I am unavoidably brown, but I speak with an Australian accent and I think that makes it really palatable for a lot of people and then coming into ministry I think the, the one quote that I think sums up My, some of my experiences of colonialism and patriarchy in the church was the first time I preached at a prior congregation where a delightful older man shook my hand and said, you're very articulate for someone of your color which it took me like 20 seconds to realize what was underneath that.

[00:08:08] But it's, it says a lot, right? A, he could only see my color. But despite my color, I apparently was articulate enough for him. Yeah, it was it's really stuck with me. So I think that's, yeah, I've, I've experienced it myself. I've also learned a lot about it through, through my masters things like.

[00:08:25] The ways the Bible was given to first nations communities and black communities in the States with large chunks omitted, because they talked about liberation from slavery and equality. And that's not, that's not what we want to tell first nations people or black people. So we just won't include it. All of that plays out today.

[00:08:43] I'd say. 

[00:08:44] Will Small: Yeah. Thank you for sharing. And for sharing, you know, honestly about, Pretty horrible experience there that you had, which is not okay, but in a sense, that's kind of part of, I guess, highlighting that that, you know, somebody can exist within Christian community and that can be like a normal attitude that can be in the water.

[00:09:03] And 

[00:09:03] Radhika Sukumar-White: that was 10 years ago in the middle of Sydney, you know, that wasn't like 1960s middle of nowhere, redneck styles. That was really recent. Yeah. 

[00:09:13] Will Small: Liesl, you kind of highlighted when you shared a little snapshot of your story that you, you entered into some spaces where it's almost like you saw yourself differently.

[00:09:22] because it was such a multicultural community. It's almost that we don't realize who we are until we are in a space where we see that we are actually you know, not the only way to be human. Do you want to share a little bit about how some of those experiences may be, I don't know, shifted the way you reflected on your Christian spirituality or how it changed the way you viewed yourself?

[00:09:44] Leisl Homes: Wow. Big questions. I was ready to answer the other question. Yeah. So. My father's a Uniting Church minister and a very liberal and open one. So when we moved from Swan Hill to Springvale in Melbourne one of the churches had a high Cambodian contingent and so part of what he instituted was having the Bible reading in English in Khmer and then the elder from the Khmer community did a, you know, five, 10 minute mini sermon.

[00:10:23] And yeah, just the hearing from the sidelines, kind of the negotiations it took to have the non Khmer speaking members of the congregation. And they weren't all English, you know, there's lots of different migrant communities that had gone through and were part of that church. But yeah, having that be, be an integral and accepted part of that.

[00:10:45] Yeah, and at the same time being at school and having a lot of different people and languages and I was so miffed when they wouldn't let me learn Greek 

[00:10:53] Radhika Sukumar-White: because 

[00:10:53] Leisl Homes: I would have been the only non Greek speaker learning and there was a different alphabet and it was too hard and I was like, humph, I'll show them and they started Chinese the next year and anyone could do it.

[00:11:03] So I did Chinese. But yeah, there's, I guess that lots of the people in, that I was at school with were second gen migrants having to do translations for their kids. They were sorry, translations for their parents Buddhists, et cetera. Springville was very multicultural, multi faith. So again, my dad was the inaugural chair of the interfaith network for the local council.

[00:11:30] And so remember they had tours. So we'd go to different yeah, different church, mosque, synagogue kind of places that they would run as cultural tours for people. So that was really yeah. really formative to acknowledge that there were value in different cultures and different people and different religions.

[00:11:49] And at the same time, sort of connecting with the Uniting Aboriginal and Islander Christian Congress and being really my dad did stuff with the Aboriginal Catholic ministry in Victoria. So sort of hearing stories there as well. So yeah, I guess that has shaped my faith. 

[00:12:06] Will Small: Sounds like you've had a very, a very rich and wide exposure to.

[00:12:10] the way that different cultures can interact with Christian spirituality. There's kind of this myth out there that some people like to propagate that, you know, Christianity is, is cultureless, or the scriptures are cultureless, or they kind of transcend culture. Obviously that is just false. I don't really feel like I need to make an argument for that, but.

[00:12:33] I suppose that that is, the problem that happens is sometimes when a, a particular cultural kind of lens to Christianity is presented as, the only one or the right one or the superior one. 

[00:12:44] And yet as Nathan started to talk about, you know, things like liberation theology, the seeds within Christian tradition are there to kind of overturn that that tendency maybe that we have to put one cultural lens at the top of the hierarchy.

[00:13:02] What are some ways that maybe you have either witnessed or that you have you know, been able to, to kind of see Christian stories or kind of, yeah, those liberation theologies applied in ways that can actually kind of invert some of those power dynamics. Have you seen particular you know, Nathan, you're talking about the gospel, but have you seen particular instances where.

[00:13:30] Stories from scripture or theological kind of, yeah, lenses have actually helped to challenge dominant power structures. 

[00:13:40] Nathan Tyson: What might that have looked like?

[00:13:49] Okay. Sure. Look, I think, I mean, I talk to lots of congregations and church groups about about first peoples and about how we, you know, need to look at and learn about history and to do, engage in truth telling. And about the fact that, you know, genuine reconciliation you know, the, the paradigm of Theological reconciliation inherently involves reparation, repentance and reparations.

[00:14:17] So as well as acknowledging and repenting, there's this bit about just reparations and then sort of forgiveness and healing. And I, I sort of talk about how in this country, I think in, In the sort of government version of reconciliation, it tries to move us very quickly from acknowledging that, you know, there's been wrong done to just getting over it and moving on.

[00:14:37] Radhika Sukumar-White: And 

[00:14:37] Nathan Tyson: it doesn't have a stop in the middle to do the repentance and the reparations piece. And I think until we do that well as a nation, we're going to be having this, that conversation about reconciliation. So the other, the other sort of passage I tend to refer to a lot is the sheep and the goats.

[00:14:57] I'm not going to remember which one it is, but you know, the fact that Jesus tells the story of when we're, when we're judged, we'll be judged on how we treat the least in our community. So we, we're not judged on how big the church is or how many people go to church or how much money we've got in the church bank account or anything like that.

[00:15:16] We're judged on how we treat the least in our community, which in my thinking is a really wonderful benchmark because, you know, I could have 5 in my pocket. And if I walk past someone in need and give them 5 or 2 to help them out because it's what I can do. That's enough. That's enough. You know, then I think the harder challenge is for people who have a lot, because they should be sort of helping a lot, and they often don't.

[00:15:42] So I think it's a wonderful sort of benchmark to be, to be held accountable to because anyone can meet that benchmark. And in fact, those with the least, it may be easier. Radhika, 

[00:15:56] Will Small: what, what comes to your mind when you think about the seeds within Christianity to overturn that colonialism that sometimes has come baked in or that racism that has sometimes come baked in?

[00:16:07] Radhika Sukumar-White: Yeah. Two things come to mind. One is that liberation theology, which I'm also passionate about, would teach our trained God who put on flesh in Jesus. showed like preferential treatment for the poor and the marginalized. And I would add to that statement, the actively disenfranchised by patriarchy and colonialism and whiteness.

[00:16:29] I think scripture would fully attest to that as truth that throughout Jesus ministry and through his death and resurrection, there was this preferential treatment. There was this affirmative action, almost preferential treatment towards those whom empire had deemed less equal. or less worthy or to be outside the city gates.

[00:16:52] So that's a real core kind of theological truth that I would hold. And I would, I would want to share the other, you know, Nathan talked about reconciliation and I, and I want to recognize that reconciliation is this ancient Christian. theological concept that then the state kind of appropriated into its narrative about how we engage with First Nations people, as opposed to treaty or reparation or whatever, like reconciliation was just kind of brought in as a much nicer, more palatable way to make right the wrongs of First Nations.

[00:17:25] let's say the ancient past, according to some. I, I think there's, I wonder what of the theological truth that reconciliation, theologically speaking is, is God's stuff and reparation is our work. And to me that also relates to the, the idea of sin. I think, I don't think we have a robust theology of sin.

[00:17:43] I think racism is sin, but I think about in that, in, in the world of reconciliation. I read a book that, that suggested that sin should be defined as harm to creation rather than the creator. So he shared this idea, like if I were to slap you, Will, not that I ever would, but if I were to, and then I would, thank you.

[00:18:07] Cause boundaries. And then I would go to church and I would confess to God that I had done that. And I believe that God had forgiven me. And you had seen that happen. I imagine you'd be pretty miffed because I hadn't sought forgiveness from you. I was just kind of making it right with God. And then my, my soul was clean.

[00:18:22] So if we redefine sin as harm of creation and kind of reground that, then the work of upturning racism or patriarchy or whiteness is our work to be done like person to person, eye to eye. Yeah. Does that make sense? 

[00:18:39] Will Small: Yeah. 

[00:18:39] Radhika Sukumar-White: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:18:41] Will Small: Yeah. It's very interesting. You know, some of the things you hear in this country, you know, one, one thing that's kind of commonly said is, you know, well, I didn't, I didn't do it.

[00:18:50] You know, something that happened generations ago, I'm not responsible for that. And yet if we are looking within like the Christian tradition, scripture actually does talk about those inherited kind of intergenerational curses or sins and, and you know, we can flip that and there's kind of an intergenerational.

[00:19:08] inheritance or blessing. But it's interesting the way that a little bit like in the example you shared, Nathan, around people want to just skip over from you know, reconciliation into, let's just move on. Actually, if we look at the kind of what's in scripture, it's much more robust than that. We don't get to make that.

[00:19:28] And the same thing, I think, with the kind of like grappling with what has come before us and where we currently are. Liesl, what you shared was actually a pretty good example of having multiple languages used in a service and actually kind of highlighting these different lenses. That's a really good example of.

[00:19:47] using the tradition to overturn the, the kind of prioritizing of just one over the other. Are there other examples you can think of where you've seen scripture used, or you've seen the tradition used in a way that helps to kind of bring justice?

[00:20:06] Leisl Homes: More personally for me one of my favorite Bible verses is Matthew 5, I think it's 23. And it says, if you if a friend or a neighbor has a grudge against you, leave your offering, go and make it right with your neighbor, and only then come back. To make it right with God. And for me, one of the things like in that I didn't do anything kind of thing as well, it doesn't actually in that, it doesn't say you did anything.

[00:20:35] There's actually no assumption of guilt in that. It's just, if my relationship with you is not right, God's a God of relationship. Go fix 

[00:20:44] Radhika Sukumar-White: it, 

[00:20:45] Leisl Homes: whatever it takes. And sometimes it takes years and decades. But yeah, you don't have to. be the guilty party to be able to be responsible for making a relationship right.

[00:20:56] And so that was, yeah, I found that really helpful. Particularly in my working, it was 20 years ago when I worked with the United Aboriginal and Islander Christian Congress. You know, sometimes I would be the personification of everything that was wrong with. the white society and colonialism. Because I am and not taking that personally, but just being able to go, well, there is a wrong here.

[00:21:18] And what small part can I do to make a 

[00:21:21] Radhika Sukumar-White: difference 

[00:21:21] Leisl Homes: to that? 

[00:21:23] Radhika Sukumar-White: The other thing, I wonder if you experienced this, Nathan, Is a pressure to like, can you just forgive already? Like, can you, can you just get over it? And I I'm reminded that there's a Samoan tradition of the Ifonga where you, you do something wrong and you sit outside the person's house with a mat over you and you just sit and wait and wait and wait until the wronged person feels ready to remove that from you and you can stand up.

[00:21:46] That's their, that's their confession forgiveness kind of ritual. And I. I think it's really worth noting that forgiveness cannot be pressured, like liberation cannot be pressured, like particularly when it's person to person. I think we're in this pro this journey of reparation and repentance and I guess reconciliation because it's taking time because that forgiveness cannot be cheap.

[00:22:09] And it will happen when it happens. 

[00:22:12] Nathan Tyson: Yeah, yeah, I come for many decades. I've come across people in talking about Aboriginal history affairs issues that have gone on. Often I get people who sort of out of the blue a bit say, but why should I feel guilty? I wasn't there. I didn't do it. I, you know, I'm not responsible for it.

[00:22:33] And it took me a long time of thinking this stuff through and probably only a few years ago, I had this sort of epiphany that, you know, What I think people experience when they learn about the true history of this country and things like massacres and Some of the awful horrible things that were done.

[00:22:50] It's not guilt. It's actually it's just a feeling of Sadness and badness and awfulness that realizing that human beings could do that to other human beings Mm hmm But I think the the word that pops into people's head when they feel that is guilt for some reason Maybe it's the first word that pops into their head with this awful feeling that they're feeling You And then they sort of don't want to feel bad.

[00:23:14] So they say, but why should I feel like this? And I think if we can reframe it from a feeling of guilt to a feeling of regret and sadness and lament and sorrow might make it easier for people to acknowledge that feeling and realize it's not a, it's not a personal judgment on them. It's actually the fact that they're a decent human being, that they, they feel that way.

[00:23:35] Leisl Homes: And 

[00:23:36] Nathan Tyson: so then it's about not trying to fix the past because none of us has got a TARDIS or a time machine and we can't go back and, but we can certainly do positive things from here. So for people who genuinely feel that sorrow and lament and regret and wish it never happened. It's then, what can they do in their daily lives in practice to make a difference?

[00:23:56] Will Small: Yeah. You know, I think about the idea of truth telling and the fact that, you know we have this phrase around the truth shall set you free. 

[00:24:06] Leisl Homes: Yeah. 

[00:24:06] Will Small: And yet it seems like there can be a real hesitance to actually sit with truth. And yet maybe even in the discomfort of being with actual truth, That is where we begin to re humanise ourselves so that we can, you know, begin to, yeah.

[00:24:26] Nathan Tyson: I, I often marvel that, I won't name names of anybody, but I've seen people that, that have come out through various circumstances in their lives and shared their most vulnerable selves with the community, the wider community, and then have found friendship and love because people relate to them as an imperfect person.

[00:24:47] Because we're all imperfect. So I think there's actually a, a, a beauty. in imperfection and in acknowledging that none of us are perfect. You know, we, if we try and have this ruse up that we're, we're perfect in great at everything it probably actually distances people from us. Whereas if we're actually real and honest, that we're not perfect, that we do make mistakes, it makes it a lot easier for other people to relate to us.

[00:25:10] So I think there's value in, in honesty and truth telling. 

[00:25:14] Will Small: Yeah. So there's been an increasing amount of conversation in recent years about the difference between. I guess just being kind of neutral when it comes to matters of race and racism being not racist versus actually being actively kind of anti racist and participating in the work of dismantling systems that would continue to oppress.

[00:25:36] I know Radhika that you are passionate about this. Could you share a little bit about, you know, again, the difference between a Christian that is just not racist versus one that actually sees a call to be. anti racist and to engage actively in these sort of things. 

[00:25:53] Radhika Sukumar-White: Yeah, so I think you, you spelled out what anti racism is really well.

[00:25:57] It's not just absence of, but an active dismantling of systems and structures and stuff that have inherent patriarchy, colonialism, whiteness entrenched. You could, you could make a comparison of, you know, Peace, not just being like the absence of war, but an active dismantling of war and of systems that enable war to happen.

[00:26:17] It's, it's much more active and intentional than just, we're not doing it. I think in order for anti racism to be real and, and part of church life and discipleship life. There's got to be the truth telling first, and that can be quite costly to, you know, speak to your own hometown about systems and powers and principalities, I guess, that hold on to whiteness and hold on to patriarchy.

[00:26:43] But if you, I have found that it's a, it's a, it's a conversation worth having, particularly when you sit in that liberation theology mindset of this is actually, this God stuff. This is kingdom of God stuff. This is following Jesus work to following Jesus footsteps who showed that preferential treatment for those that the world would disenfranchise because of lots of different things, including color of skin and ethnicity and stuff.

[00:27:08] Yeah. I think

[00:27:13] using theological language can make it a little easier for systems to hear and to listen and to make some change. 

[00:27:19] Will Small: Hmm. I think a major challenge that, that we face, and this would apply to lots of different issues. But when there is kind of a status quo in place and for the, the majority, it appears to be working.

[00:27:34] It can be hard to get that majority to care about making a change when it doesn't feel like it impacts them. 

[00:27:43] Radhika Sukumar-White: A hundred percent. But 

[00:27:43] Will Small: I think that's actually false because what, what that would imply in a situation like this is that the current situation is actually good for the majority. When I would actually want to challenge that and say that in any situation where there is racism, everyone loses.

[00:28:00] In any community where there is a kind of narrowing down of who has power, everyone loses. But still it can be difficult to try and help shift the mindset of a community or a movement or a denomination around these things. How have you thought about this? And what does it look like to try and help people realize that we all miss out if we don't grapple with this conversation?

[00:28:28] You know, we all lose out in a country like Australia when we don't actually, you know honor and engage with the wisdom of the oldest surviving cultures on the planet. We all lose, not just First Nations people. Yeah. What are your thoughts around how to try and help people see what we're missing if we don't all 

[00:28:50] Nathan Tyson: kind of come to this conversation?

[00:28:56] I think 

[00:28:56] Radhika Sukumar-White: we're still in the, I think, I think there's much of the society that still has yet to understand that feminism is also for everyone. Like that feminism isn't just for the empowerment of women. It actually affects and helps all people of all genders and all ages and all of that. You know, if that's still a conversation, then the idea that anti racism is also for everyone has got a fair way to go.

[00:29:20] Yeah. I just wanted to name that.

[00:29:21] Will Small: Yeah. And then, well, they're connected, aren't they? I think so. Right. Like a lot of these things, it's hard when you kind of layer up the, the sandwich. But when you, you knock over one of these dominoes. You have to then look at, well, where have the same, the same kind of impulses been operating?

[00:29:40] Because often I think it is driven by the same sort of power dynamics and, 

[00:29:46] Nathan Tyson: you know, yeah. I was just going to say that the reason that, that, that sheep and the goats passage is so useful for like, is that, you know, it talks about, you know, how you treat the least. So I think often what we find in society are people that are well off and going okay, sort of have this.

[00:30:04] Often, you know, it's a privileged state, and their life's going okay, their stuff's under control, so life is good. But I think the intentionality of that passage is that that's actually not good enough. We need to intentionally look at how our leased are going and to care for the leased. So it's not good enough to go, look, I'm okay.

[00:30:27] So therefore everything's okay. Because we know that there will be people who aren't okay. And as long as those people aren't okay, we're all not okay. So I think, I think that's an important thing. 

[00:30:40] Will Small: Yeah. And I think a lot of this is sort of, you know, maybe another part of the, the kind of Christianity we've inherited.

[00:30:46] And I think this has more to do with our Western cultural context than, you know, what the Christian tradition necessarily has always been. But we've inherited a very individualistic approach to faith often. And yet when we start to see ourselves more in a collective, you you know, collective way, then it's much easier to say, well, wherever there is suffering, it is my suffering.

[00:31:09] So I think there's, again, there's kind of this interconnected work there, but the more that we can see ourselves as. My well being is connected to the well being of the community that's, that's going to take us a lot further than, well, I just need to look out for me. 

[00:31:22] Nathan Tyson: And the wisdom of First Peoples is that, you know, we were certainly the, the, you know, it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to raise a village, you know, it's about looking after everyone in that community.

[00:31:37] Because everyone needed to be looked after. So everyone had a role. Everyone had a place. Everyone had, you know, a right in a sense to be part of that community. So a very community oriented caring and sharing sort of philosophy or worldview or value set versus what we've come to know as a Western or capitalist sort of mindset of individualism and wealth creation.

[00:31:58] And you know, the more money and assets you have, the better you are and the bigger you are. Usually and often to the detriment. Of the least. Yeah. In our community, you know, it's almost like for there to be uber wealthy, there needs to be uber 

[00:32:11] Leisl Homes: poor, 

[00:32:11] Nathan Tyson: when in fact there should be a need for it. But neither of those things.

[00:32:14] Yes. 

[00:32:16] Leisl Homes: And I'm sure there's stats, they're very old, but, and I can't remember whether it's from South African apartheid or where, but that says the bigger the gap between the rich and the poor, the worse the mental health of both. 

[00:32:31] Radhika Sukumar-White: I'm not surprised. Yeah. 

[00:32:32] Leisl Homes: Yeah. And that, yeah, for me, one of the blessings of having worked with Aboriginal communities for quite a long time is the, grace and richness of knowledge of the elders.

[00:32:46] And the way I did the About Face program, which is faith and culture exchange. And I went up to Galiwinku in Arnhem Land. And I got, this lady was telling me this story about fishing. And we, they were going to take us fishing and we went and we got picked up, me and the other Heidi who was with me on About Face and we drove around the community and I was trying to work out what on earth was going on because they'd stop at this house and that house and that house and they were looking for the net.

[00:33:13] It was a communal net. So in the end, we didn't go fishing because someone else had taken the net and gone. So we went and picked pippies and pulled pandanus and did other things. And one of the elders told the story while we were sitting and, you know, doing the work and she's like, if you go fishing you need lots of people to hold the net.

[00:33:30] And if the relationship between the people doesn't work, then the fish might get away. And if you've got holes in the net, your fish might get away. And if a shark comes, then the fish might get away. So you've got to make sure that the relationships are really good before you go fishing. And if you go fishing for people, then if your relationships aren't very good, then you have to stop.

[00:33:51] you know, you won't, you won't catch the fish. And I'm going, is she going, is that spiritual? Is she talking about the natural, like actual fishing? Is this a metaphor? And ages later, I realized it was my brain that was doing that. For her, there was no distinction between the spiritual and the physical and the relational and it was all connected.

[00:34:12] And I think that experience and understanding that everything's connected, the people, the land, the fish, the animals, like. We aren't individuals. We can't exist as individuals. And I think that awareness is a real gift. Yeah 

[00:34:30] Radhika Sukumar-White: Yeah, that also reminds me of the kind of part of the effects of whiteness is the assumption that people who are not part of the dominant culture don't have their own theology or spirituality or understandings or whatever.

[00:34:46] And so by, by the grace and paternalism of said white people, they can only come to learn which is bollocks. I don't know if I can swear on this. And the other thing that happens is, is tokenism that you know, we might hear a first nations understanding or theology somewhere, and then that person can sit down, thank you very much, that's enough, you know, and then we will have a Tongan person do a dance and then they can sit down or whatever in the Uniting Church, we still have a quota system in our, in our committees, in our spaces.

[00:35:14] And I think there's benefits to that. And I think it's really. a problem as well. Cause I think quotas around the world, affirmative action in the States and various other spaces can only be a step on the way to actual racial justice. And a genuinely anti racist like church. I struggle with the quota system myself cause I get onto things a lot cause I tick a lot of boxes.

[00:35:38] And that makes me feel like I'm only there because I tick the boxes. You know what I mean? So they can't, they can't be the end. They have to be a means. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. 

[00:35:48] Will Small: Yeah. Which I, what I hear you saying is definitely, that doesn't mean we do away with you know, systems that help us move towards, but we've got to not view that as 

[00:35:58] Radhika Sukumar-White: we're done.

[00:35:58] We're good. Yeah. 

[00:36:00] Will Small: Yeah. Yeah. I think about, you know, think about an 18 year old person who's maybe grown up in church And in the next decade of their life, they're going to experience. You know, a greater sense of the options out there in terms of belief systems and ways of being in community and ways of being spiritual.

[00:36:23] And I sort of think if their Christianity just mirrors a lot of the cultural values of individualism and capitalism and exploitation, I think there's a good chance they'll walk away from it. And for good reason. 

[00:36:39] Leisl Homes: Mm hmm. 

[00:36:40] Will Small: On the other hand, if the faith that they receive or that they develop actually tells a different story about what it means to be human, what it means to be in community, what it means to care for a place and its people, well, maybe that'll be exactly what they, they need in a world that can be so disheartening.

[00:36:59] What do you think are like the essential seeds that you would want to be planted in the faith of that 18 year old? To, to actually have a faith that flourishes and engages deeply with the things that we're talking about. 

[00:37:12] Nathan Tyson: Mm. I think, I

[00:37:19] think just having, having the awareness that, I mean, God, God is there always. Like we're not, yeah, our mission is to serve in the mission of God, not to be the mission of God. So we, we need to be intentional about what we, we, we do and what we think we can do and to also not feel we need to do it all. 

[00:37:43] Leisl Homes: Mm.

[00:37:44] Nathan Tyson: Sometimes it's enough. To be enough for yourself in that space in that moment and to, you know, to live to play another day. You know, you certainly don't need to die in every ditch. I think a lot of passionate young people can burn out because they're so passionate and want to fix everything right away.

[00:38:02] I certainly did. And it gets really frustrating and you can burn out. And I think one of the things I've learned over time is that sometimes good things just take a bit of time. And if you Put the work in and have the faith. Eventually you realize that the work was worth it. You might not be right at the time.

[00:38:20] So just have that faith, do the work, do the good things, but also let go, let God sometimes.

[00:38:26] Radhika Sukumar-White: I happen, I happen to be minister and team leader of a congregation with a, with a legacy of radical discipleship stuff from my, from my predecessor minister. And I think there's, there's still really good stuff in radical discipleship about how. You say you follow Jesus, you say Jesus is your saviour, your Lord and saviour.

[00:38:45] How is that going to affect the rest of your life? Cause it should. I think the seeds that I'd want to plant in that 18 year old to allow your worship of Jesus to affect the ways that you spend your money, use your body, 

[00:38:57] Leisl Homes: you, 

[00:38:58] Radhika Sukumar-White: Engage with community, work for justice, all of that, like to move away from the Sunday Christian idea, I think is really, really important.

[00:39:05] And also, I mean, there's, there's ancient and worldwide sayings about how important it is to do everything in community, how completely completely important and vital it is to do justice work, advocacy work together with other people, shoulder to shoulder and how much higher the risk of burnout is when you're doing it alone or trying to do it alone.

[00:39:26] Cause you're not the saviour on your own, but together we could do some, we could do some cool stuff. And good things, amazing things have happened by groups of people over the years. So I'd want to implant that in. I'd want, I'd want to ensure that that 18 year old, whoever that person is, and whatever their heritage is, is aware of their own privileges, aware of where they sit in, in a context of a much larger world, a globalized world in terms of richness and, and whiteness and gender and all that kind of stuff.

[00:39:56] And to just keep that in mind And I, I guess from my context of, of Leichhardt Uniting Church, I, I think, I don't know, the faith in action stuff is really, really important to us. So learning how to agitate effectively in systems that are really slow to change. And systems that, that generally seek to silence and patronize young people.

[00:40:19] Like, Oh, you're so cute and passionate. Okay, go away now. To learn how to community organize to learn how to negotiate, to learn how to build relational power, all that stuff I think is really important. And it's faith filled. And can make genuine change. 

[00:40:31] Will Small: Yeah. What seeds would you want to plant in this 18 year old that we're talking about, Liesl?

[00:40:41] Leisl Homes: The really basic one of you are loved and you are enough. You're loved and you're enough just as you are. And there's nothing you have to do differently. And God may well have a jolly awesome plan for you. So be open to what that might be. I'd also like to say that if you're white, male, heterosexual, 18 year old, you are not the devil.

[00:41:02] Mm. You don't have to carry all of the guilt of all of the years of what patriarchy has done and you are in a privileged position and can make a difference. 

[00:41:15] Will Small: And I think there's sort of this, you know, there's two questions, like, what do I do with the privilege that I have? 

[00:41:22] Radhika Sukumar-White: And that 

[00:41:22] Will Small: might be to varying degrees, depending on where we exist in the world.

[00:41:27] And then what do I do with I guess the harm or mistreatment I've experienced, again, varying degrees. But I think it's kind of how do we help. people to think through, you know, I think about the story you shared, Radhika. I think about any 18 year old who's experienced racism in the church. What would we want to say to help affirm that that young person belongs in the church, belongs on the microphone, belongs in the leadership.

[00:41:57] But then I also think, what would we want to say to to each person as they grapple with, well, what privilege do I have that I can use to affect change? If I am that 18 year old white heterosexual, you know, young man, which I was, and then certainly thought that I, you know, deserved the keys to the kingdom, you know, maybe the message for me was around, well, how can you be more mindful around the space that you take up in a community and how that is.

[00:42:28] Is there anything else you would want to say, you know, I think particularly to that, to the young person who has experienced racial injustice directly and thinks, well, Christianity doesn't seem good for me. You know, what, what would we want to say, you know, Nathan, Radhika, what would you want to say to a young First Nations person or to a young person who's, you know, from a migrant background and looks different to the people in their congregation?

[00:42:53] What would be the words of affirmation around why Christianity, or maybe not in Christianity, but why God, why Jesus is actually good news. 

[00:43:04] Radhika Sukumar-White: Mm. 

[00:43:06] Nathan Tyson: I don't think of how to put this, but I think just as sort of beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think racism is the problem of the perpetrator. It's, it's, we need to, you know, and particularly young people need to realise that people that are exhibiting those behaviours, it's actually their problem, you know, whether they've got some sadness or lacking something, lacking in their life, whether they're bitter or angry or they've had a hard life and they want to take it out on other people or whatever it may be.

[00:43:39] the problem is with them. And if you can think about it that way, it makes it a little bit easier to go, look, I'm going to try and take some time to talk to them or to, to build relationship with them. Or even if it's just persisting for five or 10 minutes to try and talk through some of their views and, and, and get to the why of why do they think that way?

[00:44:00] You know, I think that that really helps. And I, and I think also, If you think, look, that's their problem, it makes it a lot easier to walk away because you're saying, look, you know, that is your issue. That's your problem. I'm sorry you feel that way, but I've got other things to do. And I think the other part of that is work with people who want to work with you because you can spend your life trying to convert people who don't want to be converted and won't be.

[00:44:25] But you can also spend your life working with people who want to hear, who want to listen, who want to learn, who want to be allies, who want to walk in solidarity, and that's where your strength is. So if you come across the people that are not pleasant, that say awful things that make you feel bad, leave them to that, and go and hang with where your strength is, where your allies are, and where the solidarity is, and life will be good.

[00:44:51] Radhika Sukumar-White: I would, I would recognize there are various forms of. Racism that, that turn up, obviously there is overt racism, really inherently racist attitudes and words and, and practices that demean people over, over other people. The other is kind of another is more insidious stuff that kind of, I don't see color mindset that you often hear in, in white spaces that seems great, but actually denies the fact that the fact of racial diversity.

[00:45:20] So sitting with said. We need to give this person a name, this 18 year old, I don't know, Joe sitting with Joe after they had experienced something. I would want to say, yeah, racism is really real, even though race is a construct that is a really ancient thing. Racism is really real. And I'm really sad that you have experienced what you have.

[00:45:40] You, whoever you are, you are an incredibly beautiful, beloved creature of God, exactly as you are. With everything that God made you to be, and that's an awesome thing. And none of that needs to be denied in order to affect change. In fact, I would think the greatest work, the greatest change can happen with your authentic, authenticity, your full integrity as a person.

[00:46:04] Racism really hurts, even though, yes, it is the perpetrator's crap. 

[00:46:08] Nathan Tyson: Still hurts, 

[00:46:08] Radhika Sukumar-White: still absolutely hurts. It can really. deny your sense of who you are but to affirm exactly who they are as a creature of God, entirely beloved, entirely worthy and with something to offer to the kingdom of God.

[00:46:26] Will Small: So last year's referendum and the conversation around it, it revealed a pretty ugly picture of the state of racism in Australia. 

[00:46:35] Leisl Homes: Yeah. 

[00:46:36] Will Small: And the church by and large didn't seem that differentiated from the broader culture. That is really discouraging. As well as being a reminder that there is, there is a work to be done and, and there is you know, it's not like the referendum's over and that's done.

[00:46:53] And it really, if anything, it actually just magnifies what, what the current realities are. What, what do you think from each of you, from the different perspectives you take and the different communities you're engaged with, what would you desire to see as the way forward? For the church in Australia, in terms of its.

[00:47:14] ability to talk about and to listen and to advocate for you know, racial justice, 

[00:47:21] Nathan Tyson: In these lands now called Australia.

[00:47:23] Look, I think, I mean, the result from the voice wasn't ultimately unexpected. I think probably six, six ish weeks out, pretty much given up. I think it was the day I got home after, you know, talking to maybe a hundred people up at Terrigal Uniting Church and, you know, being really warmly received and getting a lot of really positive feedback and getting home just in time to see the six o'clock news come on and the headline was The Divisive Voice.

[00:47:55] And I thought, how can I compete in trying to share true and accurate information about what this voice is about to come home to the mass media calling it a divisive voice? You know, we, we don't have divisive federal elections, divisive state elections. They're just state elections and federal elections.

[00:48:14] And of course, there's two or more sides. But I thought the, the Murdoch press. Maybe I shouldn't say that, but anyway, like, the powers that be were certainly, you know, allowing a lot of that misinformation to be, to be distributed to the public, causing a lot of fear and confusion, and, you know, that fear and confusion causes people to, you know, vote what they think is safely, which was no, because, you know, this thing of if you don't know, vote no.

[00:48:41] Which was just amazing in that all my life I've been taught, if you don't know, look it up. You know, my mother, you know, if I asked her how to spell a word, she didn't tell me, she said, there's a dictionary over there. Go and look it up. Yeah. So, yeah, that was how my mother empowered me to learn and to grow.

[00:48:57] Rather than saying, if you don't know, don't worry about it. So I think for me that misinformation in mass media and the amount of racism on social media just went through the roof and it continues to go through the roof. I often don't, you know, struggle to get out of bed if I look at social media before I do, because if I happen to get onto a thread and there is just, oodles of racism.

[00:49:21] It just makes me think, why bother sometimes? And then I think, you know, it's an echo chamber, leave it alone, get away from it, turn it off, which I also recommend to young people. If you, if it gets too much, turn it off and walk away from it. Trust me, it'll be there in a week when you get back to it. So self care is really important, but the issue of, of racism and racial vilification on social media as well as, you know, a whole bunch of other bad behaviors needs to be addressed because it is normalizing this sort of discussion and behavior in society and it shouldn't.

[00:49:53] Because most of those people that say those things in the safety of their keyboard worriership would not say them in a social setting. So something needs to be done to curb that. 

[00:50:04] Radhika Sukumar-White: The echo chamber thing I think is really, a really important thing that younger generations are starting to figure out around social media.

[00:50:11] That social media can be an incredible force for good and for organising power and And building momentum, but also you can absolutely, because of algorithms, just be surrounded by like minded people and have no idea about who is beyond that until you have raw data from something like the voice referendum that says no state voted yes, you know I think some people saw the writing on the wall, but even so the shock of the day afterwards was really acute.

[00:50:36] And the grief is still very present, I think yeah, growing up as a, as a millennial in this, in this century means reckoning with the power of algorithms and AI and stuff that kind of only give you a certain amount of information and filter the rest out. So, turning it off I think is a really, really smart thing when we figure out what to do next is to have dis, disentangle yourself from the addiction of social media and getting all your knowledge and information and community from there and actually getting out from under that and, and going outside, meeting other people.

[00:51:17] Nathan Tyson: Yeah. Sometimes Google research is a bit better than social media feeds. Yeah, if you want to know something, actually Google it and do some proper research it's all there. 

[00:51:26] So, and I often used to say that with, during The Voice, was that there was so much misinformation and to me it was obvious misinformation I think, because, just to apply a little bit of common sense, but the other thing you could do is, you know, if there was a statement made, you I was encouraging people to just type that statement in with the word debunked after it and see what, see what comes up and, you know, eight times out of ten, someone would have done this research and have debunked this particular statement and it was really easy to find the debunking of it.

[00:51:58] So I would encourage people to actually look, if you see something that just doesn't seem right, actually go and do just a quick Google with the word debunked. 

[00:52:04] Will Small: Yeah. 

[00:52:05] Nathan Tyson: And someone would have debunked it probably already. Okay. 

[00:52:08] Will Small: I'm aware as we come towards the end of our conversation and I want to honour your time and I'm really grateful for each of you being part of this conversation, but I'm aware that we, we leave this one with more questions than answers in some ways.

[00:52:23] And I think that that's that's probably normal when we're talking about. Big things, big challenges and I think for some of us, and I include myself in this category, sitting with the discomfort of some of these things. can be an important part of listening to the Holy Spirit and of actually just being able to surrender what I cannot do.

[00:52:47] And I think there's some great wisdom shared around, you know, particularly what you're saying, Nathan, around just going slow and you can't fix it all in one go. But I wonder what would be the final thing that each of you would want to say, just maybe a single sentence particularly to, yeah, younger people who might be engaging with this.

[00:53:04] What would be the thing you would want them to continue to dwell on, to ruminate on as they go forward 

[00:53:11] Nathan Tyson: from this moment?

[00:53:17] There's a 

[00:53:19] Leisl Homes: biblical verse, I'm terrible with knowing which ones are which, but it's that we're fighting not against people, but against powers and principalities. And there's two things to that. One is that even if the person that you're talking to is talking absolute drivel, or rubbish, or evil words.

[00:53:38] They're still a human being and it's not that human being is loved. And what they're saying is coming from that set of powers and principalities that need to be fought. And the best way to fight it is with love. And the reminder is that Jesus has fought the fight and already won. And the Holy Spirit is here with us as we live into that kingdom of God, so that we don't have to fight that 

[00:54:02] Nathan Tyson: fight alone.

[00:54:13] You, you never have to apologise for doing what's right, but there is a fair amount of discernment. In working out what's right. So I think if you, if you think through issues, well, and that includes talking to others and, and getting advice from other people. But, you know, at the end of the day, if, if you are standing up for what is right, you should never need to apologize and you should never be criticized.

[00:54:42] So for young people who are passionate about. justice issues go hard and like go really, really hard but pace yourself. You know, learn from, I mean, I often say to people, I've made plenty of mistakes, so if you can learn from mine and it saves you making them, please do. But that is the benefit of, of, you know, being a lawyer.

[00:55:01] Many, many older people that we know they've often been through these things. So draw on their wisdom and remember that often things aren't the short game. It's often not about the short game. It's about the medium and the long game. So pace yourself and think stuff through in terms of. Being geared up for that medium to longer term slog as well.

[00:55:23] You know, just self care, pace yourself, hang with good people, surround yourself by good people. And, and you'll be okay. 

[00:55:32] Radhika Sukumar-White: I would say that human history is dotted with these big moments of unlearning. The world is flat. The world is the center. I don't know. Men are better than women. I don't know.

[00:55:45] All throughout history, right? I wonder if now, with Black Lives Matter, and The Voice, and Deaths in Custody, and, and you know, post apartheid and whatever, we're actually in this season of reckoning and debunking the myth of race and de disempowering the power of whiteness. I think we're in that season, and that's really cool, because I think we're moving closer to the kingdom of God, which is a world that is free of the shackles of racism.

[00:56:12] And it's here and it's on, and it is on its way.

[00:56:17] Will Small: Thank you, Nathan, Radhika and Liesl. I really appreciate you being part of this conversation. Thanks Will. 

[00:56:23] Leisl Homes: You're welcome. Thank you.

[00:56:28] Will Small: Well, hopefully that episode has given you some thoughts to continue to chew. The conversation doesn't end now. It begins. Make sure that you continue to talk to your friends, family, neighbours, whoever, about the things that we'll raise in this episode. This was brought to you by Spiritual Misfits and the Uniting Mission and Education Pulse team.

[00:56:49] And if you go into the show notes with this episode, you can follow us on social media, join the Facebook groups, keep the conversation going.