Amy Kenny: 'My Body is Not a Prayer Request'

Amy Kenny, author of 'My Body Is Not A Prayer Request,' joins Will for a discussion about disability justice and ableism in the church. She shares her experiences of being prayed over for her disability to be erased and the harmful treatment she received in the church. Amy emphasizes the importance of recognizing the image of God in disabled bodies and reframing our understanding of healing and curing. She challenges the ableist language, assumptions, and practices that exist in churches and calls for a more inclusive and holistic approach to faith. The conversation explores the themes of inclusivity, disability in scripture, and creating communities that fully receive the gifts of all members. Amy Kenny shares her journey of accepting and being proud of her disabled identity and how her theology has evolved to embrace disability. She emphasizes the need to move beyond tolerance and charity towards celebrating and learning from disabled individuals. Amy also discusses the importance of unlearning ableism, creating cultures of access, and developing a community care network for disabled members. The conversation concludes with final thoughts for both disabled and non-disabled listeners.

Amy's website: https://amy-kenny.com/

Amy's book: 'My Body is not a Prayer Request'

Keywords
disability justice, ableism, church, disabled bodies, healing, curing, image of God, inclusive faith, inclusivity, disability, scripture, theology, identity, acceptance, pride, ableism, access, community care, unlearning, celebration

Chapters

00:50
Introduction and Background of Amy Kenny

04:02
Feeling Like a Spiritual Misfit

08:00
Encountering Jesus in Unexpected Places

11:03
The Harmful Ableism in the Church

17:40
Reframing Our Understanding of God and Disability

31:54
Reshaping Conceptions of God for Inclusivity

38:18
Moving Beyond Tolerance to Fully Receiving Gifts

44:11
Developing a Community Care Network for Disabled Members

48:43
Architecting Life and Community for Co-Flourishing

50:47
Learning from and with Disabled Individuals

58:29
Embracing Divine Identity as Disabled Individuals

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Transcript

Will Small (00:02.428)
Amy Kenny, welcome to the Spiritual Misfits podcast. I'm so delighted to be having a conversation with you.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (00:08.76)
Thanks for having me.

Will Small (00:11.028)
We're just chatting briefly about how you are Australian born, born in Brisbane, but have lived in the States for the majority of your life. I have very much enjoyed in the last couple of weeks reading your book, My Body Is Not A Prayer Request. And that's going to be, you know, what we talk about in this conversation about disability justice and ableism and the way that the church often is at least as bad, if not worse.

than the rest of society when it comes to these things. So, but to begin with, why don't you just paint a picture of who Amy Kenny is? What does life look like for you?

Amy Kenny (she/her) (00:51.16)
Well, thank you for the kind words about my book. I am, among other things, I am a disabled woman. I'm unashamed of my disabled body. I am an ambulatory wheelchair user and cane user. I'm originally from Brisbane, as you say. I'm Australian by birth, US American by migration now, and a third culture of...

lived experience that is both and neither of those and somewhere in between. And I'm a scholar, an educator, a learner. I feel more at home in the water than on land.

Will Small (01:34.881)
Very good. Well, I have to say that I basically got in touch with you, Amy, because somebody who is a regular listener to the podcast, Jane, shout out to Jane. She sent me a message after listening to one of a previous episode and she pointed out some language that I'd use where she said, you know, this was ableist language and it would be great for you to reconsider some of that phrasing in the future. And so I really appreciated her reaching out.

And, you know, the opportunity to try and become more mindful and aware. And I asked Jane, you know, what are some resources you would recommend? And she recommended your book. And so that's how I reached out. And I have actually just found your book to be so helpful in, in. Provoking my thinking, challenging me, moving me into some spaces of the good kind of discomfort is how I would describe it. Discomfort that kind of.

you know, re -re -positions ourselves in the world. And so I want to thank you personally for your book, but I also want to right up front tell all of our listeners that I definitely strongly recommend it. But before we jump into the book, yes, absolutely.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (02:42.21)
and also to thank Jane. Yeah, so thank you to Jane.

Will Small (02:47.272)
Yeah, legend. Before we jump into the book, I generally open interviews by asking people, and I think this may tie in, but to share a bit of their backstory, reflecting on this idea of being a spiritual misfit. Is that a phrase that resonates with you in any way? What might it have looked like for you at different points in your life to maybe feel like there was a lack of fitting or a lack of belonging?

and how that might intersect with some of your, I guess, your religious background or your background in faith spaces.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (03:20.94)
I grew up in a home where I was taught that everyone is made in the image of God. And I had the audacity to believe that.

Will Small (03:32.127)
Mm.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (03:35.182)
Definitely my church didn't believe it about my disabled body or at least they didn't treat me as though they did, even though they professed they did. From the time I was 11 until I was 17, almost every Sunday, I was prayed over for my disability to be erased for part of my identity and a way that I navigate through the world to be erased. People used words like

demonic and sinful and what sin is preventing you from running and get behind me Satan was a regular greeting and that does something to you after a while. I think what it did to me was gave me a large therapy bill down the line, but I knew that that didn't smell like Jesus and I knew that

folks who were trying to pray me away didn't get to determine who's on the guest list for the Great Banquet. And so I just had the audacity to believe that I was made in the image of God despite that, I think well -intentioned, but very harmful treatment. And so in a lot of ways, being a spiritual misfit doesn't just resonate, it feels like it's reading my diary because

Will Small (04:56.544)
Hmm.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (05:06.226)
I quite literally don't fit in a lot of spaces using my wheelchair. If a space has stairs, if it has no ramp, if a space is too narrow, I don't fit. And disabled folks have historically been called misfits and been labeled out of sync with the rest of society. so really connecting that to my spiritual journey of

not being fully welcomed or not being able to fully participate is something that really deeply resonates with me.

Will Small (05:44.804)
Thank you for sharing that little window into some of your backstory. And I think that that distinction between what we see in the person of Jesus, what we might understand to be the heart of God or what it means to be made in the image of God, the mismatch is so often between that and then how that is, you know, potentially undone or kind of worked against in communities that are claiming to be centered around this story.

and so there's lots of examples in your book where you, yeah, you read your book and there's such a beautiful image of God woven throughout. you, write beautifully about the sort of, the biodiversity of God's creation and how that can be a different lens for looking at disability. So beautiful images of God, beautiful images of Jesus, but then often these, yeah, these images that kind of turn the guts in terms of thinking about, man, that experience of yourself and so many others who have not experienced that in practice.

And so there's some great stories that you share, not great because they happened, but the way that you tell them and what they illustrate is, is, you know, really illuminating. And one of those is a story around a time when you were at the DMV or I guess in here in New South Wales, it would be at service, New South Wales, going to get, you know, your license and, you talk about, I'm just going to read a quick quote and then I want you to fill in this story. If you're happy to give us the fuller story that you write there.

In a DMV parking lot on top of crumbling cement, I am met with more accommodations than I have found in most churches. Jesus showed up in the form of an eavesdropping ex -felon that day. Jesus is always showing up for me like that whenever disability doubters linger nearby. I just wish Jesus would hang out at church more often. So hopefully that's enough of a tease that people are now leaning in going, what happened in this story? Could you fill out a little bit more about what happened with the ex -felon in the DMV car park?

Amy Kenny (she/her) (07:38.702)
So I went to the Department of Motor Vehicles to renew my disabled license plates and because I needed them renewed and disability doubter was there working at the DMV questioning whether I am disabled enough for these disabled plates and questioning why I needed these disabled plates and people are staring and I'm blushing and there's enough of a scene.

that someone that I've never met comes over to support me and offers to help me in the moment. And he spills his story to me in the car park, as you do after you have encountered someone in this way. And he's telling me about how he just got out of prison and he wanted to support a fellow outcast. And I think a lot about

Matthew 25 in the ASV, the Amy Standard version, which I imagined to say, depart from me, for I used a wheelchair and you gave me no ramp. I needed an accessible bathroom, but you said it was too expensive. I asked you not to insult me by saying disability slurs and you laughed at me. I just wanted to be included. And you said, I made you uncomfortable.

whatever you did for disabled people, you did for me. And I think about Jesus showing up in the form of folks who recognize the pain of being an outcast, who recognize the harm of questioning disabled folks and treating us in this way.

My body almost becomes a type of public property in these moments, subject to the whims and judgments of anyone who deems themselves to be able to pass judgment on my identity or status. And that is something that I think.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (09:48.034)
the co -suffering Christ has been really present to me in. And I say that I wish Jesus would hang out at church more often, which I've received a lot of feedback from people about, as you can imagine. And I think that's because in my experience, Jesus is often showing up for me in moments where the church does not.

Will Small (10:13.994)
There's so much that that story highlights. mean, that experience of the disability doubter. obviously that's, that's a significant thing that I think people would do well to think about more, to not, to not be one, to not perpetuate that, you know, to trust, what people are.

know, telling us about their experience in their body. But yeah, I do think that that line, that really struck me in the moment. You know, I just wish Jesus would hang out at church more often because I've had lots of conversations making this podcast with lots of people who have brought the presence of Christ to me and yet they have been people that have often been excluded or condemned or, you know, whether it's to do with sexuality or gender or the many

walls that we build in the name of Jesus and yet we find Jesus when we go to the other side of those walls so often. Another sentence along a similar sort of, similar sort of line of thinking, you said, the most harmful ableism I have experienced has been inside the church. Now, if people hear that and they immediately feel pangs of discomfort, I want to say, let's just actually just pause for a moment think about what that means. I wonder if you could, you know, paint a bit more of a picture about that. We're starting to get a picture, but what

does it, what does it look like? The kind of common, but maybe unseen for a lot of people ways that churches perpetuate and reinforce ableism in the world.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (11:41.848)
really like the definition of ableism from T .L. Lewis, which talks about how ableism is a system that places a hierarchy and value on people's body minds based on our constructed ideas of normalcy, intelligence, excellence, productivity, and worth. And hopefully we can acknowledge how those are connected to

racism and homophobia and colonialism and how they're really mutually constitutive. And that ableism harms disabled folks to be sure, but I think it harms all of us, these limiting ideas that we're all just trying to be Bobby, know, where we're all just trying to be this idea of what a perfect body mind might look like or communicate like or move like. And

It's so insidious because it shows up in our language. People use disability slurs all the time. In talking about how something is negative or derogatory, people will often use disability slurs. It shows up in our assumptions. Often people will approach my husband and tell him that he's brave or an angel just because I'm disabled.

or that he's very kind. It turns out he is very kind, but not because I'm disabled, just because he happens to be a kind person. And assuming that I am helpless and that there's no real benefit to my company or partnership because of my disability is really harmful.

Will Small (13:14.441)
Mm.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (13:35.882)
It shows up in assumptions in assuming that I want to be prayed for, that I want my disability to be erased or cured in some kind of way. I am often the recipient of prayers and potions from folks at the church that I've never asked for, or that they don't know how God is already at work in my disabled body mind. It shows up in our actions.

People often push me when I'm using a manual wheelchair. People will often push me without my consent from one side of the room to another, or they will assume that I need help and just move me around as though I am an object and not a subject. I often get pat on the shoulder or sometimes even the head as though I'm a good dog and...

And that is also an action that is really rooted in infantilizing ideas of disability. It shows up in our practices. Think of our liturgies or the ways that we gather together. Do we demand that people stand or do we look down on folks who aren't? we make it a space where people are welcome to meet their access needs, to move and stim and pace and interact?

in a way that meets their access needs, or do we stifle the way that people can gather together? It shows up in the songs that we sing and the ways that we're often using disabilities as negative in a lot of songs that we sing and assuming that the erasure of disabilities is somehow what heaven or kingdom come can be like.

And then finally, I think it shows up in the erasure of the way that we interpret scripture, the way that we interpret the divine in our lives. It's so often that stories that portray disability that is diminished in some way or reduced when people are talking about scripture as though that is not a part of the story. And...

Amy Kenny (she/her) (15:54.71)
I think that really limits our understanding of God. And I think it really limits our understanding of the divine presence with us in our disabled neighbors. Moses speaks with neurodivergent speech. Elijah deals with depression and suicidal ideation. Timothy is chronically ill. Zacchaeus is a little person. Paul has the thorn in the flesh. Jacob walks with a limp and...

has a cane, Jesus himself has resurrecting wounds and those are just to name a few and yet those are so often erased when we talk about those disabilities and a disability framework are so often erased when we talk about scripture and that really limits our ability to understand disability as divine.

Will Small (16:50.869)
I loved the way you re -highlighted so many of those texts and examples and reading through and going, like, I love the story of Jacob wrestling, walking away with a busted hip and a blessing and, you know, this sort of disabled Christ. I want to sort of loop back to that, that Christ comes back wounded, you know, and bearing the scars in resurrection.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (17:04.706)
Me too.

Will Small (17:17.7)
all of that was beautiful, but I guess what I'm hearing about what maybe the added layer is in churches is that you could go anywhere in society and expect architecture that is not, you know, disability friendly. You can expect, the kind of general, you know, slurs and language that I love. There's an image you use in the book about like the vending machine of language. And we can expect in society to find this language that is outdated, that it's like, it's expired. It's time to change our language.

And yet what's happening in churches is that there's this added layer of these beliefs that people have around what happens after we die and what the end goal is and what makes a body worthwhile. And you write about how, how we think about eschatology influences how we treat people today. And if people have this kind of vision that in the new heavens and the new earth, there will be no disability, then, that does obviously add this really,

know, enhanced layer to that ableism. It's no longer just about architectural language as important as those are, but it's about people's core beliefs around who belongs and what the future looks like. And I suppose, partly people, you know, are drawing these assumptions from what they've learned about Jesus' kind of emphasis on miraculous healings and, you know, that element of his ministry and this idea that, well, someone might just come up to you and eschew.

that you want to be, you know, cured. But you paint a really helpful distinction, I think, between curing and healing and shifting our image from, you know, again, that sort of Barbie doll bodies are the end goal to a much more holistic picture of what, you know, our eschatology could look like if we saw everything as belonging in a healed way rather than a cured way. Could you talk a little bit more about the distinction between those two?

Amy Kenny (she/her) (19:17.304)
Yeah, I'm always just one kale smoothie or essential oil away from being non -disabled, according to church folks, you know, as though leaping out of my wheelchair after having one of those is the end goal. And while I say that jokingly to, you know, bypass some of the pain of it, I also think behind that are really troubling ideas about

eschatology and about bodies, as you say, curing is physical, it's quick, usually, it usually concentrates on eliminating disease in some way, it's an individual process. Healing is so much more complex than that, it's richer, it's deeper, and because of that, it's messier, it's...

a communal process or a socio -cultural process. It's about restoration, not about fixing. And healing has interpersonal and social and spiritual dimensions. It's lengthy and ongoing because it's a process of restoration. Anyone who has had a surgery knows this to be true. You can be cured of

an appendicitis or something, you know, fairly rapidly, but the healing takes a long time. You might have PTSD or you might have wounds about the process of that discovery of the burst appendix. You might have to undergo a lengthy recovery process with lots of ups and downs. One day you can get out of bed, the next you can't.

All of that is the ongoing healing process that hopefully we're surrounded with community that is caring for us in the process. I think because these are so often conflated, we really quickly bypass healing and wanna jump to the quick fix of curing. And of course we do because that's an instant gratification and because it's individual, so it doesn't really demand anything of us in terms of community.

Will Small (21:41.545)
Mm.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (21:41.718)
And so often folks want me to be cured so that they don't have to be uncomfortable with their own ableism or their own assumptions about disability. They also want me to be cured because of fear. You know, I think in a lot of ways I'm the ghost of Christmas future. I represent

that if you live long enough, you will join us one day. And that's scary to people, and people have a lot of fear around becoming disabled. And I think also people...

want me to be cured because...

They don't want to have to make any societal or structural changes to the way that we gather in faith communities or the way that we practice our faith. And it is long and enduring work to do the work of healing and to really do that as a community. And that requires something of us that curing doesn't.

Will Small (22:47.304)
I think this is one of the many things we could look at, like you said, where, ableism doesn't just impact, you know, folks with disability. This, this attitude actually impacts us all because I think about this in regards with how we think about health generally. And often, you know, we treat the symptoms rather than the underlying causes. And we live in a society that's all about the quick fix and all about the, and I think that that, you know, no, nobody benefits.

from that and that harder but more holistic work of what does it look like to address the socio -cultural things that are underlying these attitudes. You need to talk about, I guess, how hustle culture, again, this is another thing that just leaves people with disability behind, but it's not like it's good for anyone. And so to go, well, what does it look like to actually see that the kingdom of God coming overturns everything that is...

Amy Kenny (she/her) (23:30.497)
Yes.

Will Small (23:45.29)
harming body minds. I love that you use that, that language of body minds. So yeah, I think that's just just one example. And I'm sure there's many of something that if we actually look at some of our assumptions, we might find that this assumption is harmful for all of us, that curing is desired over healing.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (24:06.86)
Yeah, it's so rooted in prosperity gospel and

Will Small (24:10.09)
Mm.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (24:13.278)
even for folks who think that they may have unpacked that for themselves and don't have a faith rooted in prosperity gospel. It's a very reductive and problematic way of thinking about what faith or what a faithful or abundant life is because it suggests that we are all promised health, wealth and prosperity, however that might be defined. And that's

That's not actually what we were promised in scripture, so that's a bit awkward. But also, that's a really unhealthy and exhausting and completely unsustainable hamster wheel to be on, to be proving your self -worth by productivity, by hustle culture, by saying, look at all these things I've done and look at my resume, instead of saying, I am...

I am worth, care, and belonging simply because I am divine.

Will Small (25:18.783)
Mm.

Yeah. And so much of this comes back to what it means to bear the image of God and what kind of God is it, is image that we bear. What do we think that God is actually like? I want to read another quote here. I copious highlights throughout the book, I must say. And I went back and I was like, I want to read all of these out, but here's one little section that, that I found, you know, profoundly moving. To assume that my disability needs to be erased in order for me to live an abundant life is disturbing.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (25:35.99)
Hahaha!

Will Small (25:49.116)
Not only because of what it says about me, but also because of what it reveals about people's notions of God. I bear the image of the Alpha and the Omega. My disabled body is a temple for the Holy Spirit. I have the mind of Christ. There's no caveat to these promises. I don't have a junior Holy Spirit because I am disabled. To suggest that I am anything less than sanctified and redeemed is to suppress the image of God in my disabled body. So...

Yeah, just one example of, yeah, this beautiful writing about how disability can be a powerful teacher about our image of God. can help us to reframe how we have understood the divine. And when we fail to genuinely include and celebrate disabled people, we're actually limiting and narrowing our experience of God. Could you do some work reframing maybe how we might image the God whose image we bear?

Amy Kenny (she/her) (26:46.648)
Well, I said it, didn't I? I went for it. Yeah, there's this passage in Daniel and another one in Ezekiel where God's throne is described as this chair with wheels and the wheels in case other wheels and they burn like fire and it's turquoise or topaz and burning and glittering. And a chair with wheels.

Will Small (26:48.542)
Yeah.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (27:16.108)
Sounds a lot like a wheelchair to me. And one that I think about as I navigate the world on wheels, I think about that wheelchair, emulating the throne of the living God. And...

Amy Kenny (she/her) (27:36.792)
Jesus' body is disabled after resurrection, and this is the only example that we have of the imperishable form. This is the exemplar for all of us. Jesus can defeat death, but can't erase some scars? Well, that doesn't make sense. I think those are deliberately there. I think that telling Thomas, put your hand in my side.

see, you know, blessed are those who see and who don't see and believe. I think that, you know, Thomas is a disability doubter, but I think also that that passage is, is reframing our idea of what it means to be sacred and to be holy and that the resurrected Christ has the disabling wounds of our redemption is really important and, something that we like

to just sort of erase.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (28:40.706)
The Spirit poll tells us, into seeds, in groans, too deep to utter, which we might think of as a similar way to how many disabled folks communicate.

So it makes sense to me to think of God as disabled and to understand my disabled body mind as bearing the image of God and as God really intimately understanding a life on wheels and a life communicating in really diverse ways and a life where disability doubters are judging and

treating one's body as a type of case to be made. And I think that's really important, not just because, Amy happens to understand God in this way, but generally the most, when people push back on this idea, you I think that says more about them than it does about anything else.

If you can't understand God as disabled, I think there's some deeper questions there about what are your assumptions about disability and what are your assumptions about God that those two things seem incompatible to you.

Will Small (30:12.941)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's no wonder our world seems to often prioritize kind of violent, authoritative power. If we think God is violent and authoritative, it's no wonder that, you know, we have a God who seems to be more interested in

morally policing culture war issues, then sitting and being present with the forgotten ones in society. If that's, know, the kind of image of God that we have. And I just think I'm not saying that I have a perfect image of God, obviously none of us do, but I think it's such a powerful invitation. You know, if my spiritual practice, if my faith is worth anything,

then I think so much of it comes down to how much I'm willing to allow my conception of God to be reshaped into something that would lead to a world that is more inclusive and generous. You know, that picture of the banquet table where everyone is welcome.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (31:23.726)
Yeah, and also that the images that we receive of eschatology in scripture, conveniently we want to erase disability in those too. So, you know, I think of Luke 14 and this great banquet that's usually talked about as eschatology, and the guests are told by Jesus to go out

Will Small (31:38.505)
Hmm.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (31:51.648)
and invite poor and disabled people first to the banquet. And then there is enough for everyone. And there's no talk of cure or condemnation. There's no critique. There's no caveat, know, or asterisk at the end of the parable saying, LOL, but not the disabled folks though. You know, I'm so often when I point out to the disabled folks are at

Jesus's description of the great banquet, I'm told, well, that's a metaphor. And people are very quick to assure me that that's a metaphor because Jesus doesn't mean disabled people. And we're all just a little bit disabled. But I think that the...

The quickness that folks seem to have to want to erase disability from scripture, from our understanding of God, from our understanding of faithfulness is really revealing. And it also invites or maybe even forces people to reframe their understanding of what new heaven and new earth might be if disabled folks are that.

Will Small (33:13.374)
Yeah. Big time. You, you weave throughout the book, you know, your own personal story and, pictures of sitting in appointments and various, you know, therapies and medical professionals. And it seems like there there's just a journey of all the ideas that society has about what your, your body mind is, is worth and how, how those are.

playing out internally in you, over time, coming to accept and be proud of who you are. And I wonder, like, if you'd be happy to share, Amy, a little bit about how some of those theological ideas, you know, was there a lot of, you said at the beginning that you had the audacity to always believe that you were made in the image of God. How much has your theology had to, you know, had to kind of like discard or, I guess, deconstruct?

some of these images of God to come to this place of, you know, being confident and proud of who you are and having this really different kind of, guess, eschatological vision to what we're kind of given by default. What's that process looked like for you over the years?

Amy Kenny (she/her) (34:30.574)
It's been a journey, it has looked like.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (34:36.406)
It has looked like...

Amy Kenny (she/her) (34:41.526)
wanting to believe. You know, I use the word audacity because I think that I did have the audacity to believe it. And I think also that there have been points where it has felt like no one else has believed that and wanting to find community and travelers on the journey of also believing that. And I do want to say that, you know, it's not that people

are always mean to me. You know, that's different than these ableist toxic beliefs, right? Lots of people are very nice or very lovely, but thinking that my body mind needs to be erased in order for us to imagine God is a real problem for me here and now, because why does that leave me? I think...

The truth of my journey is that the trees whispered my wealth to me long before any church did. I noticed that.

are crooked and bent. And those are words that doctors have often used to describe my body mind. And I thought, well, if I can marvel at the splendor of something that is crooked and bent, then how come I can't think about that as of myself? And then I started to think about how kangaroos can't walk backwards.

and shocks communicate without talking and

Amy Kenny (she/her) (36:32.544)
elephants are born blind. And I started to to witness a kind of disabling gait in the penguin. And think about how lions sleep most hours of the day, and they're really similar to us spoonies. But no one calls them pathetic or lazy, they're fast and fierce and ferocious.

And so if I could think all of those things about the beautiful community of creation, then how come I couldn't see that in the mirror? And I started to really ask myself, what if I too could be radiant and vibrant and not just my personality or a piece of me that is bypassing the fact that I'm disabled.

but the fullness of who I am. And I found that in the community of creation really validating that for me. And then over time, I started to realize that disability culture is something that so many of us are benefiting from regardless of whether we know it. know, everything from

Will Small (37:55.773)
Mm.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (37:58.552)
Texting to the touch screen, to the potato peeler, to the electric toothbrush is created by and for disabled folks. And these assistive technologies are now so ubiquitous that many of us use them without even realizing their disability history. And so that too helped reframe some of the...

lies that I had been taught to believe into a more divine and generative idea of disability. And I started to realize that disabled folks are uniquely creative because we live in a world not built for our body minds.

Will Small (38:49.192)
that that section of the book, we talked about all those assistive technologies and all those, you know, benefits that we all receive, kind of willingly receive the benefits without thinking about where they've come from. That was so illuminating.

You know, I think there's like a, one of the major paradigm shifts here. And I do think it applies to a lot of the different kinds of groups that the church has historically excluded. is that we, we might think that, the, the godly thing to do is, is to kind of tolerate that group. Is to kind of, you know, the best we could hope for, is to, is to put in the wheelchair ramp. and then, you know, we've kind of ticked ticked a box now.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (39:05.486)
Thank you.

Will Small (39:34.578)
absolutely, people should put in the wheelchair ramp. the move that I think is the most important paradigm shift, and I think what I'm seeing really in how you articulate all this is to move from tolerating to receiving the gifts of, to celebrating, to having like this open heart to the diversity of ways that God can come to us, that Christ can meet us. And so I wonder if you could, you know, maybe

paint a bit more of a picture again. It's all coming through, but I'd love for you to talk a bit more about not just a church that is, I guess, ticking the box of accessibility, but what does it look like to create a community that is fully receiving the gifts and learning from all of its members in all of their diversity.

Will Small (40:29.576)
And maybe one way you could think about this is to, if you've got examples of where you've seen tastes of it, where you've kind of felt glimpses of it, you answer however you want, but you know, that could be one way.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (40:29.752)
But I think.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (40:43.362)
I think what you're acknowledging there is really just the charity model of disability, right? It's that disabled folks are objects of pity and should be given charity. And sometimes that's in the form of a ramp or captions or an interpreter or various lights, but it's all done out of charity. And that's still rooted in a power dynamic, you know, when we pity someone.

we have power and we're looking down on them. And quite literally, people are looking down on me all the time when I'm using my wheels. And I think also that...

Amy Kenny (she/her) (41:25.784)
We are so far from thinking about disability as a gain, and we have so often been taught to think of disability as a loss, that we confuse access for celebrating, as you say.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (41:46.068)
Access is crucial and needed, but so often that has to be fought for that we can't even learn from or learn with our disabled neighbors. I have been a part of the church my whole life and

I don't think I can ever remember having...

an openly disabled pasta or Elda or Deacon or

Amy Kenny (she/her) (42:26.402)
Can you?

Will Small (42:29.792)
Probably not.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (42:30.987)
and

So I think some of it is, you know, some of imagining what this church could be or what faith communities could be is to learn from the wisdom of disabled folks, to have disabled folks in leadership roles in whatever faith community you find yourself a part of, to read our books or listen to our podcasts or whatever an accessible way to learn for you is.

I think.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (43:07.786)
Another glimpse is when people don't try to erase disability from scripture, but instead acknowledge the ways that disability is often prophetic and can often be a blessing. And instead we often erase it or we reduce it to a cure narrative. So really moving beyond that and inviting

us to learn from what disability wisdom can teach us.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (43:41.88)
Being part of a community where you can pay the Crip Tax for people is another glimpse of it. So we know that being disabled costs extra because we live in a world not built for our body minds. And what would it look like for a faith community or a church to come together and help pay some of those additional costs?

for the disabled members of your community and not through charity or pity, but through the vibrancy of interdependence. The non -disabled person can't say to the disabled person, have no need of you. How preposterous would that be? If we really all are one body, if that's a metaphor that we want to use, then let's try to embody that by

creating a community care network to meet the needs of disabled folks. And sometimes that's gonna be with finances. Sometimes that's gonna be with presence, know, with showing up for people and not being uncomfortable to talk about disability or around disabled folks, but to really be present with people in our community and with our neighbors.

And I think the biggest and hottest piece is to begin on the journey of unlearning your own ableism. And we have all been immersed in ableism and it's so ubiquitous that we often don't even realize it's there.

Will Small (45:17.887)
Mm.

Will Small (45:30.613)
I really like you use this phrase, multiple times in your writing around using, points of, departure, not destinations. and when there is that moment of, I have, I've used ableist language or I've participated in perpetuating ableist structures. if someone points that out to me, rather than viewing that as just, you know, the destination is to feel bad.

Actually, no, that's a departure point into a new way. I love that. I love that kind of framing of it. What, what would be your words maybe to people that are, you know, many listeners to this podcast, some of them have tapped out of church completely. Some of them are hanging on just, some of them are trying to reimagine what it looks like to create communities either from scratch or, or to, you know, turn.

turn communities that maybe have been around for a long time. I think a lot of us are asking in a lot of different ways, what does it look like to create a community that does challenge patriarchy and queerphobia and sexism and ableism? And so many of these things are interwoven and connected as we've pointed out. But to people that are kind of, you know,

trying to create new faith communities. And I'll speak personally, so we have a church that, it's kind like a house church model. We don't have a building. quite, you know, very much a hybrid of a WhatsApp group and some gatherings in public spaces, in parks, homes, things like that. So in some ways, what accessibility looks like for us is different to if you're the church on the corner.

you know, with the building that you're looking at renovating, but whether you're in either of these spaces and you're listening to this and you're going, really want to go on that journey. want to do that unlearning. what would be some of your words, you know, of, of departure for people? would be some of your, words of how to go on that journey, in a sustainable long -term, you know, kind of open hearted way.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (47:53.87)
Welcome and...

Amy Kenny (she/her) (48:00.13)
None of us know everything. Together we know a lot. When folks share with you and trust you with some of their story in saying, hey, that's ableist or that's harmful or that seems like that's actually perpetuating a lot of harm that I've experienced.

that it's really easy to be defensive in those moments, but that's such a moment of grace and trust that someone thinks you're worth investing in. so responding with gratitude or kindness or the ability to understand is that outside of your own.

experience of defensiveness is really important to creating these communities that you're describing, I think. I think also recognizing that perfection in itself is ableist, that none of us are perfect. And that can also be weaponized, but that this idea that we can somehow strive for a community that never

says it wrong or gets it wrong or does anything harmful is an illusion of white supremacy and ableism. And the more that we can acknowledge that we will mess up and try to be open and receptive for when we do, that it's not an if but a when, I think the more that we develop that muscle and have practice in that.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (49:57.41)
But I also think that...

So many models of church are very patriarchal and very ableist in the way that...

They demand for us to sit and listen, you know, for X amount of time or perform X amount of tasks. And so really developing a culture of access in whatever faith community or church community or chosen family that you find yourself in, a space where people are invited to roll, walk, stim, sign, move, dance in a way that is accessible to them.

And that will open up such a possibility for everyone, regardless of whether they currently identify as disabled, to have an embodied experience together.

Will Small (50:56.168)
Hmm. so, so much good stuff there. I'm going to be, I'm going to be listening back to this one myself and taking notes. it's just, yeah, so much good stuff. I really appreciate the distinction between perfection and wholeness. That's another one of these things we conflate like healing and curing. that, you know, one of the things that I've found really affirming, as I reflect on these themes is this idea that, I would say that

compared to earlier years, my faith absolutely feels like it has a limb. My faith absolutely has lost the kind of confidence or arrogance that it once possessed, you know, in the pursuit of this kind of perfect understanding. It's now got lots of doubts, lots of holes, and yet I'm actually hearing that that is perfectly okay.

And I think for anyone else who's listening, who's in that position, again, those like, that's what scripture can highlight. If we're looking for it is that when you encounter the divine, you don't walk away perfect. You walk away, maybe, aware of all the ways that you are not. And yet that you are whole and accepted. There's sort of this tension point through all of this. That's not, it's not what I'm hearing. It's not about saying to disable people, you know,

Well, you talk about sometimes the problem is society rather than the body. I think that's a huge thing, right? And sort of helping people to say, you can, we need to make life more manageable for people, however possible. But so often that is not about changing the body. It's about changing the surrounding structures. So anyway, all of that to say is really helping me.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (52:44.354)
Yeah. Can I ask if you feel like sharing and feel free to tell me to get lost. You know, do you think that the growth that you've experienced in being able to recognize that your faith can have holes or scars or crooked or bentness, right? Do you think that that has come also by way of your own

deepening of your understanding of your body mind, just in aging.

Will Small (53:20.516)
Hmm. Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, it's funny. I watched, I watched the Olympics, right? And you see like, yeah, yeah. amazing. But you know, like there's this, there's this temptation to watch the Olympics and to go, my goodness. This is 14 year old skater who is absolutely at the top of their, like a peak performance. And I think, it's easy to sit back and watch and go, well, I'm passed. I'm passed.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (53:27.798)
Yeah, we did so well in the pool!

Will Small (53:49.276)
my peak, I'm past my prime and, you know, I can't do those things anymore. I think there's a way of watching it and celebrating what, what that person is doing while also saying that that's not like, you know, yeah, peak physical performance is not what it means to have arrived as a human. And I should say that the other thing that I think in recent years has been a, you know, huge educator for me is that I have, two kids who are autistic.

And, that, that has really, I remember when we were going through the process of diagnosis, that I had all of that ingrained thinking in my brain around what that meant. And around like that being like this thing to, I don't know, I guess, like grieve or something. And yet, you know, now I, I, my, my thinking has shifted so much around that just bit by bit, to where I realized that, yeah, I guess we've, we've tried to create a life that is much more built around the needs.

of our children and in the majority of the time within that context, they're flourishing. And so that has definitely obviously been a huge educator as well.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (55:04.43)
Yeah, and I love that you use the word flourishing because it sounds to me like co -flourishing for you and for them and that that is really different than the control mechanisms of perfection, right? And sort of having a picture perfect childhood or a picture perfect, you know, nuclear family and that's...

Will Small (55:12.723)
Yeah.

Will Small (55:19.4)
Mm. Yeah.

Will Small (55:28.575)
Mm.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (55:30.978)
that is often actually harmful and at odds with what co -flourishing can be.

Will Small (55:38.642)
Yeah. And it's interesting to think that, you know, we can think about architecture as a, as a physical sort of, marker of how inclusive, or accessible spaces are, but like we're constantly involved in the architecture of our life and our schedule and, trying to architect our life so that it is a space of co -flourishing for the different needs of different people in the family. And then to extend that out to community.

I think is a really good invitation. I'm conscious of your time, Amy, and it's the end of the day for you. It's early in the day for me. I thank you so much for what you've shared and for your time. Hopefully people will be inspired by this and they'll go and continue to read more of your work as well as the work of others in this space. I love that your book finishes with two benicryptions. I love the play on words.

and you have one for, for disabled folks and for non -disabled folks. And I wonder if at the end of this conversation, you just offer your final sentence or two, like a thought to, to dwell on maybe for those who have disabled bodies and for those, who have non -disabled bodies, what would be like your final thought for listeners? as you think through each of those.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (56:58.424)
My final thought for non -disabled folks is...

you are already benefiting from disability culture, whether you know it or not.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (57:13.55)
So.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (57:19.222)
Why not use that as an invitation to learn more from us and with us about how we could all co -flourish.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (57:32.322)
My final thought for disabled folks is...

Amy Kenny (she/her) (57:39.062)
You are divine, just as you are.

Will Small (57:45.78)
Beautiful. Thank you so much, Amy. It has been an absolute pleasure and yeah, grateful for your work.

Amy Kenny (she/her) (57:54.37)
Thanks, Will.