Sally Longley on violence, silence and Ignatian spirituality

In this episode Sally Longley shares her journey from a belief in violence to embracing pacifism and Ignatian spirituality. Sally shares her experiences in South Africa during apartheid, her theological studies, and the transformative power of silence and imagination in spiritual practice. The conversation delves into the complexities of nonviolence, the role of anger and grief, and the importance of silence in modern life, emphasizing that true transformation often requires confronting uncomfortable truths. In this conversation, Will Small and Sally explore the significance of rest, silence, and contemplative practices in a chaotic world. They discuss the essential nature of patience in love, the importance of creating inclusive communities, and the role of spiritual direction in navigating crises of faith. Sally emphasizes the power of deep listening and the need for spaces where individuals can come as they are, fostering a sense of belonging and connection.

Connect more with Sally's work here: https://www.longley.com.au/

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Transcript

Will Small (00:02.251)
Sally Longley, welcome to the Spiritual Misfits podcast.

Sally (00:05.824)
thank you Will, it's great to be here.

Will Small (00:09.269)
Great to have you here. I have been really looking forward to our chat. We had a brief chat on the phone a couple of weeks ago and you come with a great recommendation from, from people I look up to a lot, including our mutual friend, Carolyn Mears, who is a friend of the podcast. So shout out to Carol, if you're listening and, Carol, you were a part of planting the seed for this one. Sally, why don't you tell us just a little bit about who you are?

Sally (00:25.996)
Yeah, gorgeous.

Will Small (00:37.907)
what life looks like for you at this season in your life and yeah, some of the things that you're involved with.

Sally (00:44.812)
Hmm, bit of a mix really I'm a bit eclectic I think

So I start early on because that actually explains why I am where I am now. So I worked, I was in South Africa working for about 16 years. And during that time studied theology in London, went over to London to study theology. And that's where I encountered. So prior to that, I was quite positive about violence. I thought that

Will Small (01:02.722)
Sure.

Will Small (01:22.529)
that the only way to really get involved or for anything to really good happen in South Africa, this is during the apartheid era of course, and after the Soweto Uprising, you know, I thought, the only way, where people are being sh-

Sally (01:23.468)
the only way to really get involved or for anything to really good happen in South Africa. This is during the apartheid era, of course. And after the Soweto uprisings, you know, I thought, well, the only way where people are being shot and they're absolutely unarmed, the only way is to actually retaliate. anyway, I went to...

London to study theology and during that time one of my lecturers was a a Mennonite and so I had lots of very feisty conversation with him about you know I said it's fine for you to be a pacifist you know you're in cloud la la land here but you know it's good there's a real world out there anyway I must say it was like a second conversion for me after it you know he took me really seriously

Will Small (01:58.785)
had lots of very feisty conversations with him about, you know, I said, fine for you to be a pacifist, you know, you're in loud, la-la land here, but you know, it's good. There's a real world out there. Anyway, I must say, it was like his second conversion for me. After it, you he took me really seriously. Alan Kreider, he's written some amazing books. One of them is Patience as the early ferment. Patience, the early...

Sally (02:19.158)
Alan Kreider, he's written some amazing books. One of them is Patience as the early ferment, Patience, the early, the ferment in the early church, something like that. Really good book. But he, he really took me seriously and put up with my feistiness and my arrogance and so on. And yeah, it was just huge. So when I returned to South Africa, I returned as a pacifist and

Will Small (02:29.121)
the early church, something like that. Really good book. But he really took me seriously and stuck with my feistiness and my arrogance and so on. yeah, it was just huge. So when I returned to South Africa, I returned as a host. And plus the other things that come with anabaptism, which is what I saw.

Sally (02:47.47)
plus the other things that come with anabaptism, which is what Mennonites are, which is, know, separation of church and state. So the church can be a prophetic voice, priesthood of all believers. So you have a hermeneutic, you don't have preachers or you downgrade, you know, preachers. There's everyone, there's a kind of a community hermeneutic, congregational hermeneutic.

And so all these really rich things. And so that really transformed me and the way I was and the way I was involved in South Africa. At the same time, because it was such a brutal time, I encountered Ignatian spirituality on a retreat. And that then sustained me in quite a profound way, you know, where the scriptures don't become

something you study, but they're actually a place of encounter. You you dive into them and you get, it's like diving into a river and getting completely wet. So I returned to Australia and I have this kind of Ignatian Anabaptist thing happening in me. So I run, currently run Ignatian retreats of.

Will Small (04:06.837)
Wow.

Sally (04:12.088)
two days, three days, five days, eight days, 30 days, silent retreat, and courses or give sort of workshops on Ignatian spirituality, what's different about it and so on. And at the same time, you know, doing spiritual direction and supervision, but also pastoring with my husband, co-pastoring a tiny little church called Avalon Baptist Peace Church.

which is very Anabaptist and has been very Anabaptist for some time. that's what I'm doing.

Will Small (04:47.57)
Wonderful. Well, there is so much there that I want to open up and explore in greater depth throughout our conversation. But yeah, I'm keen Sally to talk to you about Ignatian spirituality and, you know, silent retreats, the role of silence in the world today, the kind of the congregational hermeneutic that you mentioned and what your community looks like. I'm really interested in that. But a question I have just from hearing some of your backstory there is

Sally (05:06.862)
the

Will Small (05:14.335)
You know, it is, it's kind of easy for me to feel like I identify with nonviolence or with a pacifist approach to the world, because I've actually never really been exposed to violence. My life has been incredibly sheltered in that sense. And I wonder, you know, for you having that conversation in real time, in a place where, like you said, you were kind of, you saw that violence seemed to be the only answer that made sense in a context where violence is actually the norm.

What actually did change your mind there or what changed your heart? And do you think that, you know, like what's the effective case for a nonviolent presence in a world that is so characterized by violence?

Sally (05:56.81)
Yeah. Yeah.

I think when Jesus said love your enemies, he either meant it or he didn't. And so there's something about how do you love your enemies? And the other thing is, and combined with that is also the Ignatian thing of a healthy detachment. I don't have a right to my life.

Will Small (06:03.349)
You're an amazing, yeah, amazing audience.

Will Small (06:19.893)
Hmm

Sally (06:21.494)
I have a healthy detachment. Yes, I'll do all I can and that's sensible to preserve my life. But at the end of the day, this is not the end. In fact, this just a tiny little, this time on earth is just a tiny little parenthesis on the huge canvas of eternity. So, you know, there's more to life and who do I want to be? So if somebody is violent towards me, do I want to let them...

dictate to me that I'm now going to become violent back. You know, so it's that kind of who chooses, how do I decide who I am to be in the world? And so I think there are a couple of things there. There's the whole spectrum of violence, which includes the way we think about the way we hold people in our heart, the way we

Will Small (06:52.289)
that I'm now going to become violent back. So it's that kind of who chooses? How do I decide who I am to be in the world? And so I think there are a couple of things there. There's the whole spectrum of violence, which includes the way we think, way we hold people in our heart, the way we...

Sally (07:17.678)
So disgust is a big issue for me. I have found myself digging deep into the well of the whole issue of disgust because that's at the bottom of, I think of lot of exclusion from churches, congregations, groups. And you see people even talking about politicians and you'll see their lip go up. It's what Darwin talked about, this innate disgust.

that originates or originally is in us for toxins and foods, but when it becomes social disgust, then it's, you know, in a sense, there's a violence there. You're pushing people away, you're excluding them because I am disgusted by them. And my disgust gives me a right to exclude. you know, violence has this long, long tail to it, I think, apart from the actual physical violence.

Will Small (07:47.357)
I

I am

Sally (08:12.962)
But I think one of the visceral changes for me was when I was working with university students and I would be working with some students, had some students in Soweto, that when I was with them, prior to being a pacifist, I was always looking at my own shoulder. It was like I had all my guards up. I was ready to...

Will Small (08:18.497)
was working with university students and would be working with some students in Soweto that when I was with them in... prior to being a pastor, I was always looking at my own shoulder. was like I had all my guards up. I was ready to fight or ready to do... that fighting was that much of a... but you know, I was sort of on guard. Whereas...

Sally (08:38.785)
to fight or ready to do, not that fighting would be much good, but you know, I was sort of on guard.

When I returned, it was like a massive affective change in my whole bodily felt sense. There was this profound sense that if I am in the right place today at 9 a.m., then I am in the right place. And my calling is to be Christ in that place. So it calls in, I think, profound trust, but it's also, you know,

Will Small (08:50.879)
Mm.

Sally (09:14.956)
And we all know that pacifism isn't passive. It's very active, non-violent resistance, if you like. And I also think then when you go to the big scale, so I've talked about little scale from our hearts, when you go to the national scale, there were lots of clues about what might begin to happen in Ukraine, for example, before it actually began to happen.

Will Small (09:18.643)
Yes.

Will Small (09:38.977)
But because our default as nations is violence and because of the whole war machine and the economy and the finance, there's no room, if we spent the same amount of money on creative options, dialogue, training people and...

Sally (09:39.042)
But because our default as nations is violence and because of the whole war machine and the economy and the finance, there's no room, if we spent the same amount of money on creative options, dialogue, training people in conflict, transformation, then I think we would have a huge thing to offer as an alternative.

Will Small (10:06.873)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's huge. I'd actually, I want to talk maybe a little bit later in the conversation about the idea of what the contemplative practices have to offer the world rather than just individuals. Cause I think they're often kind of viewed as very individualistic, maybe part of our kind of Western mindset, but I was thinking

Sally (10:09.506)
That's the non-violence thing, yeah.

Sally (10:20.238)
Mm-hmm.

Will Small (10:27.733)
Does silence or does retreat or does walking a labyrinth actually have something to offer an aching planet, an aching world, rather than just me in my own kind of individual practice. So I do, I'm just going to plant a seed for us to come back to that. But one question I have while we're hanging out in this, this violence territory upfront is, I think, cause I, cause this is a very live question for me as I look out at, I guess, you know, particularly what's happened in Palestine.

Sally (10:41.464)
Yep.

Will Small (10:55.825)
in the last year, it has horrified me like it has horrified many people, for good reason. And I think when we see situations like this, there is a sort of natural anger that arises. And I wonder if some people think that maybe what comes with non-violence or with a pacifist approach is that I can't have my anger. And I'd be curious what you would say about what's the role of like anger.

Sally (11:16.76)
Ooh.

Sally (11:21.154)
Yeah.

Will Small (11:21.685)
grief, being incensed, being outraged, even maybe feeling some disgust, but not allowing that to turn into the poison of violence. So what do we do with that in a way that maybe is constructive for

Sally (11:33.878)
Mm, mm, yeah, absolutely. It's a bit like fire, you know, in the right place. It does what it needs to do. But in the wrong place or let loose, it's very destructive. it's that inner working with our own reflexive responses and reactive responses to things. The more we keep that in check with the little things and

begin to hone ourselves, which happens through contemplative practices, then the more, when the bigger things happen, we're not taken by surprise in quite the same way. But I think that anger, grief, these are all indications that something is incredibly wrong and unjust. And we we rightfully feel this way and we need to let that fuel our

Will Small (12:14.017)
that anger, grief, like these are all indications that something is incredibly wrong and unjust and we rightfully feel this way and we need to let that fuel our courage, our courageous, our audacious actions. the adrenaline pumping and help us to do things that we, you know, we might not have.

Sally (12:30.318)
our courage, our courageous, our audacious actions, you know, get the adrenaline pumping and help us to do things that we, you know, we might not otherwise want to do, you know. I think there's that, used to be Christian peacemaker groups that were in the Middle East some time back and they, and Donna Mulhern and people like that have been involved in them where, you know, that you go right into places where, you know,

Will Small (12:41.735)
Hmm

Sally (12:59.946)
Logically, you'd say, you know, you're putting yourself on the line here and this is a bit silly. You've got a family. So it helps you do and leap into that courage space. Yeah.

Will Small (13:13.778)
Yeah, I love the thing you said about the food a channel our resources and our creativity into, you know, alternatives that are still fueled by that that same fire. There's there's amazing possibilities there that are often unexplored, sadly. So tell us a little bit more about Ignatian spirituality.

Sally (13:31.182)
Mm-mm.

Will Small (13:36.765)
I read on your website that you are actually a qualified giver of the Ignatian spiritual exercises. And I was like, that's an interesting sentence. What does it mean to be a giver of the Ignatian spiritual exercises? But even before answering that question, you know, for someone who's maybe had very little exposure or who kind of the word maybe sounds nice, but they don't really understand what the, I guess the characteristics are of Ignatian spirituality. us a bit about that.

Sally (14:00.915)
Yep, well Saint Ignatius of Loyola was born in the 1400s and he, it sort of comes from him, but he was one of these very rambunctious and very arrogant and very macho kind of people who imagined that he was going to save the world and so on.

Will Small (14:22.468)
Imagine that you just have a safer world.

Sally (14:28.014)
long story cut short, he is involved in the war in Pamplona, French, because he's Spanish, so right, and he gets hit by a cannonball in his legs. And so, you know, in that era, you know, he spent an awfully long time recovering from that. And it was during that recovery, he'd kind of daydream in his imagination. And he'd daydream himself as kind of a knight in shining armour and

Will Small (14:57.197)
and rescuing the damsel in distress, all that classic kind of stuff. And it gave him some, you know, some joy. Because of course they didn't have Netflix now. And then he would daydream, being a kind of a follower of Jesus, because he'd been lent a book about the lives of the saints and so on. If you want to imagine what happens on the lake.

Sally (14:57.452)
rescuing the damsel in distress all that classic kind of stuff and it gave him some you know Some joy because of course they didn't have you know Netflix then And then he would daydream Being a kind of a follower of Jesus because he'd been lent a book about the lives of the saints and so on he he began to imagine what happens if I was like one of those saints one of those disciples if I was like Jesus and

he sort of changed instead of being sort of a knight in shining armor to being sort of a knight following Jesus. So he still had that kind of military idea. But the sense of the idea of following Christ with everything, you know, when he weighed them up, the one that gave him the better sense of what he calls centia,

Will Small (15:55.457)
It actually means your felt senses, that deep sense of coming alive in us, the whole body. That was what hung on. That was what lasted, was when he imagined becoming a follower of Jesus, as opposed to the other. And so that gave him a clue. So long story, he goes off and so on, and he becomes the founding person of what are now called Jesuits.

Sally (15:55.883)
It actually means your felt senses, that deep sense of coming alive-ness in your whole body. That was what hung on. That was what lasted, was when he imagined becoming a follower of Jesus, as opposed to the other. And so that gave him a clue. So long story, he goes off and so on, and he becomes the founding person of what are now called the Jesuits.

But that's one of the pillars. And of course, he finally throws down his sword and takes off his noble gear and puts on that of a peasant. And from there on, he lives an incredibly simple life. And he trained up people. And so he then worked with his own understandings of what is this raw kind of stuff of how does the spirit speak to him? What is God's?

How does God speak to your body like that? And so he kept following that and refining that and understanding it in a deeper, deeper level so that he then created what are called the spiritual exercises. And he taught them to women, to lay people. He got brought before the Inquisition. He didn't have the kind of training that he should have. So eventually he went off and got the training because...

the institution decided that he needed the training. I've heard that before. So some of the central pillars, if you like, of Ignatian spirituality are the affective, your body, this movement, this interior movement that we have, what gives us life or what drains us? What's kind of death dealing for us? What's life giving, what's deathing? And knowing that this is

Will Small (17:25.342)
They'll do that.

Will Small (17:36.281)
Mm. Mm.

Sally (17:50.872)
happening in us all the time. So there's that as a key thing. The role of your imagination, know, to daydream is a good thing because we get to discover who we are and what we're being beckoned into. Also with scripture, he would say dive into scripture like a river, like I was saying before. So if you have that, like the first chapter of John's gospel where

when Nathaniel is sitting under the tree and I think it's Andrew or Philip comes along and says, look, we found the one, come and see.

Nathaniel says, you know, can anything good come out of Nazareth? You know, he's the kind of the town joker and so on, or cynic. And he said, well, come and see. So he gets up and starts coming to Jesus and Jesus says to him, behold, a true Israelite, a man without guile. And there was, it sort of cuts past his cynicism and doubt and everything.

to the real essence of who Nathaniel is. And Nathaniel recognizes himself in the way he's being named by Jesus as a person without God. And he says, how do you know me? And Jesus says, because I saw you. And so Ignatius would say, imagine the place with all your senses. What does it smell like? You go into it, you sit under that tree.

Will Small (19:16.353)
Imagine the place with all your senses. does it smell like? You go into it. You sit under that tree. What do you smell? What's the texture of the tree? What do you hear? Do you hear the wind blowing against you? Can you feel the temperature of the air? What's the taste in your mouth? What are you smelling? And you go through that bit by bit by bit until you get up and you walk towards Jesus. And then you hear Jesus say, can you hear me?

Sally (19:22.478)
What do you smell? What's the texture of the tree? What do you hear? Can you hear the wind blowing in the, you know, against you? Can you feel the temperature of the air? What's the taste in your mouth? What are you smelling? And you go through that bit by bit by bit until you get up and you walk towards Jesus. And then you hear Jesus say to you, behold, a person, what? And you let,

your imagination come to life. And you know, if this sort of thing takes you closer to God, then it is of God. If it cools you and turns you away from God, then it's not of God. So it's a very easy kind of center line that we have there. a lot of, when I was first in one sort of church, imagination was, you didn't trust your imagination.

But you need to have a healthy skepticism of both logic, so-called, reasoning and imagination. I think it's some, Malcolm Guyatt writes wonderfully on this and he says, reasoning enables us to understand to some extent or to comprehend to some extent, but imagination enables us to apprehend. And I would say, and be apprehended by.

Will Small (20:20.884)
Hmm

Will Small (20:37.505)
Reasoning enables us to understand to some extent or to comprehend to some extent, imagination enables us to apprehend. And I would say, and be apprehended by. So it gives us that, know, reasoning is one plus one equals two. You don't have to revisit that. But if a poem or imagination or parables or jumping into scripture, we can go back and back and more comes and more comes.

Sally (20:51.424)
So it gives us that, you know, reasoning is one plus one equals two. We don't have to revisit that, but a poem or imagination or parables or jumping into scripture, we can go back and back and more comes and more comes and more comes. so it's a, you know, imagination is a truth bearing faculty that the spirit used. So that's a very central part of, and then the whole role of silence that is profoundly formative. So I did my,

Will Small (21:11.913)
Hmm.

Sally (21:22.655)
my doctorate on silence, mainly on silence and the transformative power of silence.

Will Small (21:29.343)
Hmm. Wow. Yeah. I mean, listening to all of that, you know, definitely there are certain spaces within the larger Christian tradition that have been very suspicious of the body of the imagination. and yet I think that that's perhaps why for people that have maybe been a bit cut off or been, you know, taught to suspect what might happen in those spaces, they can actually feel like such hidden treasures when they kind of come to

Sally (21:41.717)
No.

Sally (21:56.575)
Mmm. Mmm.

Will Small (21:57.995)
to find an embodied practice or to allow their imagination to really come, come into play. And I mean, like literally play, in their, in their mind and their body. yeah. So silence, I like the idea of it. I've actually written a poem about how I believe in it. It's a little bit like the Northern lights for me where I'm like, it sounds like a lovely place to go to one day in my life. And yet it feels otherworldly.

Sally (22:06.092)
Yeah.

Will Small (22:25.939)
It feels almost inaccessible. my goodness. Silence feels so far from my day to day reality. but could you share a little bit about how did you come to, doing a doctorate on silence? Did that come through curiosity or did it come through experience? Like had you, had you actually tasted of what silence could offer and then you explored it further or was it the other way around?

Sally (22:26.254)
Mm. Mm.

Sally (22:42.305)
And.

Yeah.

Sally (22:48.876)
Now it was taste. It was the first retreat I went to in South Africa, which was Ignatian. then, since then, running silent retreats and going to silent retreats myself, you don't come out the other side of a silent retreat the same you in. And so there's this profound transformative effect. It's not always pleasant. And I think that that's, I ended up writing the book.

conversations with silence, particularly for people who want to know more about silence, because I was running retreats and some people would come arriving thinking, it's going to be beautiful. And then, you know, what often happens in silence is that we're undone. You know, some things it's almost like we're going along on a freeway at a mighty rate. And then when we finally stop and go to a silent retreat, it's almost as if we stopped the car in the middle of the runway, the freeway and

Will Small (23:24.747)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (23:48.056)
bang, know, we hit from behind. All the things that we haven't processed or we've run away from, or, you know, we've just shelved, I'll try and work on that later. And it just comes wham, bam. So it is transformation. For other people, it can be, you know, this amazing and some, you know, and it alternates. Sometimes for me, it's you know, a time where all the toxins that have been sitting there that I'm

Will Small (23:54.881)
you know, we just show, I'll try and work on that later and it just comes to a bam bam. So it is transformation. For other people, it can be, you know, this amazing and some, know, and it alternates. Sometimes for me it's been, you know, a time where all the toxins that have been sitting there and parts of myself that I really don't like have decided to pop their little heads up.

Sally (24:17.038)
Parts of myself that I really don't like have decided to pop their little heads up. So I think it's Martin Laird who says, silence is like a balm that you put on your wound and sometimes it brings out toxins. know, it's, what do you call it? A poultice. A poultice pulls out toxins from a wound and sometimes it does draw stuff.

Will Small (24:23.825)
So I think it's Martin Laird who says silence is like a balm that you put on your wound and sometimes it brings out toxins. know, it's what you call a poultice. Poultice pulls out toxins from and sometimes it does more stuff. Or it could be a balm, but whatever it is, it's always...

Sally (24:45.44)
or it can be a balm, but whatever it is, it's always just the way God is and who God is by nature. Always we're brought, it's always in the service of healing and wholeness. yeah, and a lot of people come thinking, you know, I'm an extrovert, you know, how can I possibly go on silent retreat? But I say to those folk, know, you have the spirit and you have

Will Small (24:49.569)
the way God is and who God is by nature. we're taught, it's always in service of healing and health. So yeah, and a lot of people come thinking, you know, I'm an extrovert, know, how can I possibly go on silent retreat? But I say to those folks, you know, you have the Spirit and you have Jesus and you have...

Sally (25:15.118)
Jesus and you have the Creator and we have different relationships with them. So already there's a group of four. So there's lots to talk about. But it's also amazing, know, once people experience it, they realize that it's like a thirst that they've suddenly got in touch with that they're desperate for. I think we've lost it in our modern lives.

Will Small (25:18.449)
and we have different relationships with them so already there's a group of four so there's lots to talk about

Will Small (25:39.648)
Yeah. mean, yeah, I think there's obviously something significant about a retreat or, you know, making a commitment to some time that is kind of a sustained time. But what would you say for people that are kind of thinking about, well, just in the midst of my life, I've got three young kids. I've got plenty of responsibilities. life feels kind of manic.

and then when I do kind of have maybe opportunities for silence, there, there is that temptation to run away from ourselves. Like it's, it's pretty difficult invitation to actually answer when you could, console yourself with some Netflix or whatever. So yeah, what, what would you say, you know, what's the role of silence even before you go to the retreat or maybe in between the retreats, just in kind of daily modern life.

Sally (26:12.664)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (26:20.662)
Yeah.

Sally (26:34.463)
I do think it's important that, know, I mean, everyone's in a different situation, aren't they?

And so sometimes I do think we need just Netflix and vegging. But sometimes that also a bit like Ignatius is sort of daydreaming. Netflix can play the role of kind of the knight in shining armor type thing, but it doesn't go that deep. So if you can put aside time and it takes a lot of preparation, I know, you know, you've got to get babysitters and so on and so forth.

Will Small (26:54.271)
daydreaming, Netflix can play the role of kind of the night-shining armor type thing, but it doesn't go that deep.

Will Small (27:06.677)
Yeah

Sally (27:11.574)
And it's amazing, particularly, you know, a lot of people feel like, well, it's selfish, you know, but in fact, the best gift you can give to those you're serving or that you're living with or whatever is your best self. And one of the ways to be able to offer your best self is to take time aside. And, you know, for a lot of people, the first day, I just tell them, go and sleep.

Will Small (27:37.857)
You know, for a lot of people, the first day, I just tell them, don't sleep. Just, you know, sleep. That's what you need. But, you know, you're there, you're at a retreat center usually, and you can invite the Spirit to say, look, I'm just whacked. I just want to sleep. But working near the sleep, you know, I'm here. It's with like Moses. I'm here. That's all you can say. I'm here. And God meets me.

Sally (27:42.786)
Just sleep, that's what you need. But you're there, you're at a retreat center usually, and you can invite the Spirit to say, look, I'm just whacked. I just want to sleep, but work in me as I sleep. I'm here. I'm here. It's a bit like Moses. I'm here. That's all you can say is I'm here. And God meets us in that. yeah, I'd just say if you can arrange it. And if you have a partner, see if you can.

Tag team on experiences like that, yeah.

Will Small (28:16.374)
Yeah, that's lovely. I guess that ties in with what I was touching on earlier, right? Where we often do think about these things kind of as a self, potentially we think of it as self-centered. At the very least we think of it as, you know, private or individualistic, but how do you think of, you know, the gift of the contemplative practices? Yeah. For a world that is

Sally (28:25.806)
Mm.

Sally (28:29.294)
and

Will Small (28:39.529)
that is violent, is loud, that is aching, crying out in so many ways. Do you ever think about that? know, the kind of these practices that can seem almost like a luxury for a few actually might have something to offer communities and nations maybe like, yeah, what does that bring to mind for you?

Sally (29:02.03)
I would say it's the opposite of a luxury. would say it's essential. would say coffee is a luxury, which I enjoy. But I find it essential for my own interior health, but also how it affects how I am with someone else. Obviously, I have all my faults and...

Will Small (29:12.627)
You

Sally (29:31.246)
quirky bits and pieces, which I'll always have, but I'm a far better person with silence than they would be otherwise. So it's that being able to, if we have inner spaciousness, which comes with silence and silence is primarily also at the end of the day, we want it to be an interior silence, you know, so that once we get in touch with how silence works in us.

Will Small (29:40.084)
It's that being able to, if we have inner spaciousness which comes with silence, and silence is primarily also at the end of the day we want it to be an interior silence, you know? So that once we get in touch with how silence works in us, and it has a language and a context that it's not empty.

Sally (29:57.164)
And it has a language and a context and it's not empty. The silence is never empty. It's full of texture. mean, you know, and context. So once we know that, then we can begin to experience an interior silence, you know, when we're walking through the city and where, yeah, we're being pressured by all sorts of things. And it affects how we walk. Like if you notice how you walk.

Will Small (30:03.649)
texture and context. once we go that, then we can begin to experience an interior silence when we're walking through the city and where we're being pressured by all these sorts of things. And it affects how we walk. Like if you notice how you walk, that will tell you what's happening interiorly.

Sally (30:26.17)
that will tell you what's happening interiorly. And so the opposite of bustle, I think. And so then when I come into a conversation, my desire is to be able to offer an interior spaciousness that is expanded as a result of silence and solitude. And then also say as a community, when we make decisions as a group,

we're able to give one another that hospitality of spaciousness and we're able to have silence between like if someone offers an idea or a thought or you know we're doing discernment about what we're going to do they offer it into the space and then there's this wonderful silence where we just receive it let it really go into the core and then someone else will say something

And then we reflect back, what am I hearing from everybody else? So there isn't this rush, you know, that you usually when one person's talking, the other person's thinking rapidly. Well, you're only listening to one ear and the other, the other part of you is getting ready to say whatever it is you want to say. And you often interrupt or jump over the other person. So it's just an interpersonal things like that. But then I think it also touches into things like patience.

Will Small (31:29.409)
So there isn't this rush, you know, that you usually, when one person's talking, the other person's thinking rapidly. You're only listening one ear. The other part of you is getting ready to say whatever it is you want to say. And you often jump over the other person. So it's just interpersonal, things like that. But then I think it also touches on things like patience. It's really interesting, Oregon and...

Sally (31:55.43)
It's really interesting, Oregon and quite a number of the early church fathers, probably mothers too, that we didn't get to write down their things. Patience was seen as a really key thing. And if you think about it, it's very hard to love someone without patience. So patience sits under love. So it really does transform. if we struggle with patience, then we're struggling with

Will Small (32:06.03)
Mm. Mm.

Will Small (32:14.525)
Yeah.

Sally (32:25.932)
You know, what enables patients, let me put it that way, is a deepening, incredibly radical...

illogical trust in this creator God that actually I'm not seeing justice now I will do everything I can I can that is mine to do to bring about and work for justice and for peace and at the end of that I can rest in that this God who is just for whom time is such a different experience than me will

bring about all to be good and to be right in the end. It's not pie in the sky when we die. I think it's more the character of God. Yeah.

Will Small (33:18.291)
Hmm. there's some beautiful things there that I'll need to dwell on a bit more. think there's some invitation there for me and some challenge there for me. yeah, it's, it's rich. I think you were starting to kind of touch on some things that maybe describe how your congregation and that sort of idea of a congregation hermeneutic is maybe different to what a lot of people have experienced where maybe we think of

church or we think of this institution and we think of somebody at the front kind of directing, telling people how it is. Could you talk a little bit more about, you know, alternative ways of orienting community? And I'm interested in this, yeah, practically with the small community that I kind of nurture where I live. Definitely I've got so much to learn and we try certainly to have this kind of non-hierarchical, invitational

Sally (33:57.312)
Yeah.

Will Small (34:15.007)
you know, sort of way of being. but tell me what that looks like at Avalon, community Baptist peace church, I think it was, or correct me if I'm but yeah.

Sally (34:19.799)
Mmm.

Sally (34:23.886)
Yeah, we're always learning as we go, Will. you know, we don't have it and we haven't mastered it. think it's anything one masters. we will have two people. So say if it's Jim, my husband, who I co-pastor with and myself, he's really good at kind of if we have a passage, he's really good at a

or an issue, he's really good at the kind of the nitty gritty stuff, the historical stuff and the crunchy stuff. And then I do more of the application. So he'll sort of chat for about 10 minutes, absolute max, and I'll give some ideas of ways of applying 10 minutes max. And then the rest of the time, at least 20 minutes, sometimes more, it's

everyone else. So we do have a very small group. We have a couple of people who are one couple people from overseas who join us by zoom. But you know, we're only 20, 23 people at max. And, and then it's open to everybody. What's, what, what's their niggle? What don't they like? What do they take issue with in that passage? Or what touches them? What's happening for them? So that

priesthood of all believers, you like, everyone is a theologian. As one of my professors of New Testament said, everyone is a theologian. Not everyone is necessarily a biblical scholar, but everyone is a theologian. And we do theology together. So the richest part always, we should agree, comes from that discussion altogether. So we just try and spark and start the conversation and...

Other people will also do that leading so that everyone is enabled and trusts their own sense of being able to offer really valuable reflections from scripture. There are some...

Will Small (36:39.073)
really valuable reflections from scripture.

Sally (36:48.278)
nominations that I've been part of and I don't know if I'm allowed to say this but you know where you know the truth is the truth and only certain people really know how that truth can be relayed and I think it is terribly destructive and takes away any confidence or any enabling of people which is I thought that's what the Reformation was about was that everybody can actually

Will Small (36:59.893)
Yep.

Sally (37:18.516)
access truth through the scripture.

Will Small (37:18.666)
Mm.

Will Small (37:25.085)
I can't imagine, I can't possibly imagine a denomination like that. You know, I've never encountered any group of people or it's, sadly not that hard to imagine. so, it sounds like a beautiful picture to me of how things ought to be. And it's messy.

Sally (37:37.747)
Yeah.

Will Small (37:46.149)
And I'm sure that that conversation goes in lots of different directions. And sometimes it might sound really enlightened and sometimes it might sound very ordinary. but I think there's an underlying faith there that actually either everyone gets to play or we shouldn't be playing like we're playing the wrong game. If it's not one in which every person is valued and invited. could you tell me a little bit about spiritual direction, Sally? So you are a spiritual director and, you were the

Sally (37:46.382)
Yeah.

Sally (37:59.182)
Yeah.

Sally (38:05.934)
Yeah.

Will Small (38:16.065)
president of the Australian Network for Spiritual Direction for a number of years. So this is also big part of your world. And, you know, just wondering how you would describe the role of spiritual direction? How is it maybe different from a counselor or a therapist or a pastor? What is it?

Sally (38:30.667)
Mm. Mm.

Mm-mm. It's a really good question. I think sometimes the lines are blurry because when, I think it's when someone is hungry to grow spiritually, hungry to wrestle through stuff in terms of how do I live this life, you know, when my life and the world is so messy and...

tough, like I think it's a tough gig this life. And so you don't have to have a crisis to come to spiritual direction, just a desire to actually have a time when you can.

Will Small (39:09.099)
Thank you.

Sally (39:19.756)
Be listened to, like just download your stuff for an hour. And my role as a spiritual director is to accompany you. So director is really an unhelpful, it comes out of history, but it really is like spiritual accompaniment. I stand shoulder to shoulder really as a fellow pilgrim. But what we do together is listen in to your life, listen to the spirit. And then my role is to...

just notice, perhaps I can reflect some things back that I'm noticing that maybe you haven't sort of noticed yourself, perhaps asked a question, but my basic premise always is that you are the expert on your life and you have the wisdom to know where you're going or whatever.

But it's just trying to access that wisdom sometimes is the tricky thing. So I don't come in as an expert. I come in as a fellow traveler. Perhaps I've, you know, walked these landscapes or some of the really tough landscapes. And so I know something of that, every land, everybody's landscape or interior landscape is different. But what I can do is just bring to bear anything that I have not as advice, but just it, it colors, if you like.

the way I might listen. so, yeah, so you see people, it's reflective process. It's different from counseling in that it's not interventionist. We're not trying to fix something. The last thing I want to do as a spiritual director is fix you. It's not about that. It's about listening into the spirit and really, you know, in each situation, it's the spirit that's the prime.

mover, the prime one that opens our eyes together to see a way forward or a new way forward. Yeah. Someone once said, think it was Barbara Brown Taylor said, you know, if you want to go to, if you find yourself in a cave and you want to come out, you want to get out, you go to a counselor. You find yourself in a cave and you're ready to go deeper in, go to a spiritual director. So that's a little bit simplistic, a little bit black and white, but

Will Small (41:25.161)
I think it was Barbara Brown Taylor said, you if you want to go to, if you find yourself in a cave and you want to come out and you want to get out, you go to a counsellor. If you find yourself in a cave and you're ready to go deeper in, go to a spiritual group. That's a little bit simplistic, a little bit like a wife.

Sally (41:43.746)
That's one way of looking at it. Yeah.

Will Small (41:47.194)
I obviously I know that, you know, with confidentiality, don't feel like you have to share anything that doesn't, isn't within the realm of what's appropriate, but I'm curious, you know, obviously, you've listened to a few spiritual misfits episodes, you know, what this kind of, this kind of project is about. And there is kind of this mass Exodus happening, I think from the traditional forms of Christianity that many of us have, have grown up with. and

Sally (42:04.558)
Yeah.

Will Small (42:13.065)
I just wonder how many people like spiritual direction or something like that might've helped them to, to go a different direction at a crossroads, or a fork in the road or what felt like a fork in the road when maybe it actually was just a, just a part of the path. do you find, have you found people coming to you in real crises of faith or, or at the edge of losing faith or, you know, kind of maybe having already lost faith, is that part of the spiritual direction space?

Sally (42:22.478)
Mm.

Sally (42:27.49)
Yeah.

Sally (42:34.328)
Yeah.

Sally (42:43.154)
Absolutely, my gosh, absolutely. A lot of folk coming out of what they might have understood to be an evangelical faith or a certain type of faith that falls within whatever we mean by that and it just starts to not work for them anymore and that's because it's almost like they've shifted internally and

Some of them come thinking there's something wrong with me. There's also that sort of second half of life too that happens where people often shift from doing and building and speaking and creating to a much more, if you like, more contemplative. Sometimes that can happen. I would say I have some late 20s people who are in that space already and it just doesn't work with a lot of churches who are

Will Small (43:41.579)
Hmm.

Sally (43:41.798)
all about this stuff and I think the role of a sage, the role of a contemplative, the role of a mystic in those churches isn't an option and so people come often thinking they no longer have faith, they've lost their faith or they've just run away to try and save what little they might have left or they've just been downright hurt, damaged.

Will Small (44:01.169)
Mm.

Sally (44:10.798)
Spiritual abuse is rife and I would say...

Sally (44:17.794)
very tough but wives of some ministers have come having been experiencing spiritual abuse and emotional abuse and losing faith in that sense. So yeah and then for some of those folk you know when they come and they think my gosh you know there's another world out here these are my people I found my people you know there's this wonderful

Will Small (44:39.745)
You know, there's another world out here. These are my people. I found my people. This is wonderful. I think you will have...

Sally (44:46.35)
And I think you will have experienced that on spiritual misfits. All of a sudden people are going, my gosh, there are people there that I can relate to. I'm not on my own. I'm not weird. not, you know, I have a place. I have companions on this road. So yeah, a lot of folk come. I've also had some folk come, you know, I had someone come who had,

Will Small (44:57.349)
Yeah.

Sally (45:14.786)
been high up in some businesses and at the age of 65 came and said, there's got to be more to life than this. What is it? I have no idea what it is, you know, but these are, these are great joys to me. Yeah.

Will Small (45:27.536)
Yeah. And I imagine that you're not, you're not waiting to try and reconvert somebody if they're on the edge of losing their faith. And I say that, you know, you articulate a beautiful, a beautiful, way of talking about Jesus and, and, you know, Christian faith. and yet, you know, I think part of what people are looking for is

Can I be with someone like that who's going to allow me the open ended possibilities of my path, even if they, end up nowhere near looking like that.

Sally (46:00.429)
Yeah.

Sally (46:04.595)
Absolutely, my gosh. that's where it's their journey, it's not mine. And I, you know, it's the whole mystery, being open to mystery, being open to the mystery of the other, the holiness and the sacred of the other, and the other, you know, the other person.

Will Small (46:07.891)
That's where their journey is going.

Sally (46:25.754)
knows deep in their heart where they need to go and that's where they need to go. You know, it's not where I, I don't know. And that's the wonderful thing. You know, it's not, it's not you come to me because actually I have this quiet agenda that I know where I want you to get to, you know, that's kind of the opposite. Yeah, that just doesn't work. No.

Will Small (46:31.239)
Yeah.

Will Small (46:41.589)
Yes.

Will Small (46:51.947)
Did you, did you ever have that? mean, I certainly have had to, do a bit of a 180 in my heart that, that learnt that it was always trying to, to sort of get a certain outcome with people. And it did have a, you know, I w I could, I could patiently love you and walk with you as long as there's a high chance of you ending up in, you know, that I guess this is the, good evangelist.

in inverted commas that was instilled in me, which I've, I think I've completely let go of that. I have no interest in converting anybody or in controlling. But was that something that you previously had, that you had to let go of?

Sally (47:35.982)
terrible, terrible, especially around justice issues. I, yeah, people told me I was going off the rails and that this was the slippery slope of liberal theology and I was going to lose my faith and, you know, they would try and work with me. I mean, I'll share an experience that my daughter, and she won't mind me sharing this, you know, she's gay and she was trying to talk to people about faith, trying to...

Will Small (47:51.809)
Hmm.

Sally (48:04.12)
hold onto her faith and work it through. And, you know, it was really interesting. People would stick with her as long as they thought she might convert. I mean, she already had her own form of faith in God, for goodness sake. But, you know, so she said to me, she turned to me around to me and said, Mom, why do I have to be somebody else's project?

Will Small (48:17.089)
Hmm

Will Small (48:31.169)
Hmm.

Sally (48:31.958)
And that's what it was. There was no real relationship. She was just a project. then as soon as it looked like she wasn't going to give them a notch on their Bible, she was dropped. Like they just didn't contact her anymore. You know, whatever. And I just think, what are we doing? What are we doing? It's terrible. Terrible.

Will Small (48:54.59)
Yeah, it's horrible. One thing I'd be interested in your thoughts on, I won't take too much more of your time. I've really appreciated this chat Sally and, and yeah, loving so much of what you're sharing. you know, you sort of touched on, right? There's this kind of, yeah, idea of first half of life, second half of life, this sort of building things up, doing things, et cetera, almost a productive.

Sally (49:03.594)
is

Will Small (49:17.931)
kind of mindset, and then you move into this kind of things almost flip upside down and you kind of re-examine things and have a different set of priorities in life. Churches seem to really thrive in that first model, like you said, and it's, there's something about building a community where it's kind of project oriented and it's, you know, we're ticking KPIs here and we're building something together.

Do you think you can create a community or create a church that has inherent in it, you know, the possibility for all of those stages to coexist well, you know, do you think it's possible to create a community where it's more, it's asking more of those kind of second half of life questions, so to speak. And yet somebody could come in as a, as a, maybe a new believer. you know, it just feels like this is one of those really hard nuts to crack.

in a way, because I feel like what the kind of more institutional church does well is it, it's easier to kind of call people into some sort of commitment and it's easier to kind of sell people on some, you know, really big sense of kind of mission in the world together. and yet I really want to, and Brian McLaren kind of talks about this kind of creating communities for that, those later stages of faith that are a bit more ambiguous and a bit more wounded potentially, but still.

Sally (50:17.294)
Mm.

Will Small (50:46.047)
you know, want to have, hope and goodness to offer the world. Like, yeah, just any thoughts you have around building a community at that kind of end of the spectrum.

Sally (50:54.668)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I would love that. And whoever's got some ideas on that, I mean, that would, that is so cool because I think, you know, and we see it in, in, you know, in some of the Catholics schools where students love the silence that they're given. I mean, that's a very broad sweeping statement. So there'll be lots of people who don't, you know, they've had so much feedback when there's a time of silence given in

in a Catholic school, because I work quite a bit with some of the executives and executive formators in Catholic schools. And the feedback they get is like one, one I'll never forget when one chap said, you know, this is the best time of the day, because it's the one time when nothing's being expected of me. And, you know, do you ever walk into a church and nothing is expected of you? You know, so and that's, you know, a high school.

Will Small (51:33.074)
Hmm

Sally (51:54.19)
So I think it's there somewhere, but how do we tap into that? How do we open a space where folk can come and know that they can come as they are, wherever they are, whoever they are in that mystery of coming together and explore like open space, openness.

that spacious hospitality that, you know, allows for all sorts, but also begins to, yeah, have that kind of, yeah, I keep coming back to hospitality, know, hospitality around the table where you're free to speak or not speak, free to eat or not eat.

Sally (52:52.15)
And yet there's a real sense of connectedness and community and a sense of belonging and that honouring the sacredness of one another. I just think that's beautiful. And maybe the institutional church needs to crumble in order for something new to be born. I'm not the first one to say that, Yeah.

Will Small (53:15.874)
Yeah, no. Yeah.

Sally (53:19.352)
So I'm not one of these people that's going around trying to keep the church institution alive at all. think the time has come, the walrus said.

Will Small (53:29.494)
Yeah. Well, thank you, Sally, for everything you shared in this conversation. What would be, what would be the final thoughts that, that you would want to share or the final, you know, sentence or phrase that you would encourage people to take away and maybe even find a bit of silence to, to, to dwell on a few words in.

Sally (53:32.514)
Yeah.

Sally (53:38.88)
It's real. Yeah.

Sally (53:52.846)
Maybe just a reflection that, you know, so often we're told to go and offer hope or go and speak peace or go and offer the gospel, but we're very rarely ever encouraged to go and listen. And I think that deep, deep listening, which is so unusual.

and so hard to find that one that's spacious and has enough room.

for the person to be fully themselves. That deep listening is a sacrificial offering and it's a love offering. And I think it's one of the best gifts we can give one another and life will come from that. So that would be, say.

Will Small (54:52.405)
Beautiful. Thanks so much, Sally.

Sally (54:54.958)
Thanks Will, it's been a real joy to be with you. we could have had more sort of, feel like I've well done all the conversation but it be lovely to have more back and forth but it's been great to be with you. Thank you so much.

Will Small (55:06.85)
Yeah, look, this was, this was definitely an opportunity for me to just throw all my questions at you and pick your brain. but maybe we can, we can catch up another time. Yeah. Yeah. That's been great.

Sally (55:17.642)
Yeah, yeah, that would be great. Love that.

Okay, thanks so much.