Tim Whitaker on The New Evangelicals, Christian Nationalism and resisting Trump’s America

In this conversation, Tim Whitaker discusses the complexities of the recent political landscape in the U.S., particularly focusing on the impact of Trump and the role of Evangelicalism. He reflects on his personal journey and how The New Evangelicals began. The discussion highlights the challenges and contradictions within Evangelicalism and the need for a more progressive and compassionate approach to faith.

Tim and Will then explore the complexities of community, identity, and faith in a digital age. They discuss the importance of grappling with one's heritage, the role of digital communities in fostering connections, and the challenges of finding embodied faith communities. The conversation also touches on the need for systemic change within the church, the discovery of new theological perspectives, and the motivation to resist harmful ideologies like Christian nationalism.

Connect with The New Evangelicals here: https://www.thenewevangelicals.com/

The Spiritual Misfits Survival Guide (FREE): https://www.spiritualmisfits.com.au/survivalguide

Sign up to our mailing list:
https://spiritualmisfits.com.au/

Join our online Facebook community:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/spiritualmisfitspodcast

Support the pod:
https://spiritualmisfits.com.au/support-us/

View all episodes at: https://spiritualmisfits.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

Will Small (00:01.656)
Tim Whitaker of the New Evangelicals. It is so great to have you on Spiritual Misfits. Welcome my friend.

Tim Whitaker (00:08.189)
Thank you, Will. Greetings from America, where it sucks. Thanks for having me on.

Will Small (00:14.363)
I was, I was going to say, you know, my condolences to you and the rest of the world really, for your very recent election result. mean, I still feel like I'm in the hangover of it and I'm over here in Australia. How's it feeling to be, to be you right now?

Tim Whitaker (00:22.333)
Yes.

Tim Whitaker (00:29.719)
well, I mean, it's kind of complicated because part of me wants to understand, you know, how this happened, like how did Trump win the popular vote and the electoral college? mean, those are two, I mean, to give your audience perspective, especially your non US citizen, or your non US audience, you know, the last time a Republican won the popular vote was 2004. So almost 20 years ago. So for Trump to win the popular vote and the electoral college,

Will Small (00:53.4)
Wow.

Tim Whitaker (00:58.163)
And I mean, there's data is data, you know, I mean, he took ground in every single state, even Democrat, democratic ones. And so it's just kind of okay. Obviously, there was something on the there was a finger on the pulse that I did not have. And that a lot of people in this space I existing did not have not that we didn't think it wouldn't be close or anything or that Trump couldn't win. But it wasn't close. It was a shellacking.

Will Small (01:22.144)
Hmm

Tim Whitaker (01:22.437)
And so I've been just thinking a lot about that as well as the future of the country who Trump is going to put in positions of power, what they're advocating for. you know, it's a lot of mixed feelings.

Will Small (01:31.662)
Yeah. man. It's, it's scary stuff and, and probably similar to you. mean, again, I followed it as closely as I could from again, you know, being in another part of the world, but I was listening to pod saves the world, quite regularly in the lead up and, know, following quite a number of sources and it definitely the outcome being such a, kind of convincing wind to Trump. It felt like a surprise to me. I know, I don't know. Maybe it wasn't, but

Tim Whitaker (01:57.811)
Yeah, mean, it's, you know, people vote for the reasons that they vote for. I think that pragmatically speaking, first off, the Democrats did not run a great campaign. They kept Biden in for so long, Biden refused to step down like he said he would. I originally, he said he was just he was just a transitional candidate. He decided to run again. He was in there too long. Also, it was very clear that that, know, he was just getting old and, you know, his mental capacity was

what happened it was it was fading and this happens to anyone when you get as old as someone like Joe Biden right. So that was tough and then you know they swapped out for Harris which you know I thought was really cool. And I was like great this feels like it's a new energy but it was such a late campaign I mean you know you don't start campaigning two months before an election three months before an election and frankly they had a billion dollar war chest they outrace Trump and they they misspent the money they spent on celebrity endorsements and I do think that

Will Small (02:44.014)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (02:57.179)
there is real and I've been saying this even before the election. Okay, so I'm not Monday morning, Monday morning quarterbacking, which that's a very American term. I don't know how much of your audience is from America or not. anyway, that's a football term, not soccer football. But I'm not I'm not trying just to be sewn from the stand saying I told you so I mean, I've been saying this before the election of like, hey, the Democratic platform is an incredibly moderate. They've been campaigning and taking endorsements from people like Dick Cheney, who's an actual warmonger or like

Will Small (03:06.414)
You

Tim Whitaker (03:26.383)
I don't want that person endorsing the person I'm going to vote for like that just feels really sus. At the Democratic National Convention, they decided not to platform one Palestinian voice for any reason. Meanwhile, they're platforming moderate Republicans and you know, military generals. I'm like, I don't know, guys, this is this this does not feel it. I don't think you're going to out Republican the Republicans. I think that you need to think about a better populist vision that is progressive and much more democratic in nature, you know.

Will Small (03:42.83)
Hmm.

Tim Whitaker (03:53.213)
How do we get affordable healthcare done for all Americans? How do we get affordable student education done for all students? How do we really get gun legislation passed so we can stop living in this hellscape where we have school shooting after school shooting, right? These are very popular ideas that I think the campaign should have ran on much more intensely than we're not Trump or you know, whatever else they might have been doing. So these are all out loud thoughts. I'm still processing them. But yeah, mean, it's a real thing and

Will Small (04:15.086)
Mm.

Will Small (04:18.957)
Yeah.

Tim Whitaker (04:22.163)
I think that we're going to see a real big backlash towards any kind of establishment.  One thing that I think Trump definitely did was he, whether it was truthful or not, he really targeted the establishment type and said, listen, like, you know, Republican establishment types don't care about you. need, you know, I'm gonna save America. We gotta think about that, you know, and like how it resonated with people. So yeah, a lot to think about.

Will Small (05:42.446)
Yeah. Yeah. And in some ways, like this is not, you know, the normal sort of analysis of the spiritual misfits podcast, but in other ways, so much of the conversations that we have, and I'll say like 95 % of our audience are actually not quite 90 % maybe 85 % of our audience for Australian, probably 10 % from the U S 5 % rest of the world. but so many of our conversations are talking about how much American evangelicalism has kind of, you know, spread its wide wings across the globe and left many of us untangling many of the things that you untangle with, you know, an Australian flavor and some unique nuance there. But, you know, I immediately after the election returned to earlier conversations I had on the podcast with David Gussie.

who came on and spoke about, know, sort of the after evangelicalism, you know, where do we go next? And then he came on and spoke about defending democracy from its Christian enemies. And, and, so I'm looking at one of the things that continues to horrify me. And I'm also, I appreciate that you started with like a position of curiosity. I want to understand what happened. Why did people vote this way? Because I think that's probably a better position to try and adopt. But my horror has been looking at the comments of Christians, particularly evangelicals just

Tim Whitaker (06:39.333)
Hmm.

Tim Whitaker (06:48.475)
Yes.

Will Small (07:08.386)
doubling down on Trump is God's man. This is God's savior. And I'm like, I want absolutely nothing to do with any kind of any kind of faith that can make excuses for or end up, you know, praising somebody that looks like they have the character of Trump and the kind of destructive energy that he does. So I think that's going to all be very relevant background context as we enter this conversation.

Tim Whitaker (07:33.786)
Yeah, no, I totally agree. I mean, it's one of the reasons why I quote unquote deconstructed, you know, I was a product of the white evangelical culture, I believed in all of it, I was radicalized by by Jesus from those people. And Trump was the moment not well, Trump was the final moment where I said all these paper cuts that I have experienced, there's too many and now this one just feels like a real

Gut punch and something is way wrong. I didn't know what it was had no context for terms like Christian nationalism or any of that But I just knew something wasn't right and the same thing rings true today. Here we are Almost a decade later and we're getting there and I'm like, wow, you know white evangelicals The the group is shrinking I think a little bit statistically but as far as support for Trump it's a solid 81 82 percent and I just

Will Small (08:07.886)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (08:23.918)
always want to ask them the same question, like what Jesus are you following? That would say, this is the person that we have to endorse the person who's been found liable of sexual assault, the person who lies more than he tells the truth. mean, these are just values I was given by them that seem to fly in the face of who they're telling me to vote for.

Will Small (08:39.692)
Mm.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So why don't you tell us a little bit more about some of your backstory and you sort of started to touch on it there but those moments where you maybe began to feel like a spiritual misfit or you maybe began to feel like a mismatch between the world that you were swimming in and then something that you kind of saw maybe that was a contrast in terms of faith in Jesus and what that ought to be.

Tim Whitaker (09:05.978)
Yeah, yeah, I grew up deeply embedded in white evangelicalism. I was homeschooled, very American reform theology or American Calvinist theology. So think of like someone like John MacArthur or John Piper. I my first church I grew up in didn't even allow drums or modern worship music. They were a traditional hymns only kind of church. And eventually they got a new pastor and that pastor said, maybe we could do a worship team. And I was 11 years old and my dad was a guitar player. And he said, you know what?

Will Small (09:24.867)
Wow.

Tim Whitaker (09:34.458)
If I throw my 11 year old son up on the stage behind the drums, no one can get mad at that, because he's only 11. So that was my dad's way of kind of getting that, know, rock and roll music into the church. But I say all that because I made a commitment early to Jesus and I meant it. I did all of the things because I wanted to serve Jesus. I did parachurch ministry, I helped plant churches, I led worship teams as a drummer. You know, you name it, small group leader, mission strips.

coordinator, I, that was my whole life, all in for Jesus. And it's funny because I've always kind of felt to a degree like a spiritual misfit, even in my own tradition. That really happened when I turned 18 and I took an overseas mission strip to Germany, Finland and Belgium for a month in each country. And when I was in Brussels, Belgium, someone gave me a book called Pagan Christianity by a guy named Frank Viola. He's a big house church guy.

And you know, Frank's message was, hey, most of our modern shirt structures come from pagan culture. You know, the the stage comes from pagan culture, the pews pagan culture, wearing your Sunday best pagan culture. Now I'm 18. I'm at the peak for radicalization. I mean, I want I'm, I'm hungry for adventure, right. And I'm involved in this evangelical world that's feeding me books, like wow, that heart, I have a beauty to find and rescue and adventure to, you know, to find a battle to to win. So I'm reading

Will Small (10:30.781)
Mm, very good.

Tim Whitaker (10:59.984)
pagan Christianity. I'm like, my gosh, like, I want the real thing, right? I want the real Jesus. I want the real church expression. I want the real gospel. This, I didn't know that so much of our modern church practices come from pagan, pagan culture. So I was really honored to be part of a young adults group in my area. There was maybe 30 of us who were all kind of hungry for the same thing. And we formed a really beautiful community. mean, really beautiful. We spent so much time together. We met together.

formerly and informally and it was it really changed my life and how I thought about church. So even back then when I was still much more conservative and listening to talk radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity, think right wing media, I was still very much pushing against my own tradition in terms of how we do church. What does this church look like? Why is it so showing production? We need to build, you know, community centered churches, not event center churches. That was my my thing. I made many people in my orbit.

Will Small (11:45.454)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (11:56.016)
frustrated or upset. I thought I was too extreme. So I've always kind of been pushing against my own traditional my own my own evangelical tradition in different ways. And throughout that time, like I said earlier, you have a lot of paper cut moments where you're like, I don't understand that. That's kind of weird. But whatever I can stomach it. Like, for example, why are we always waging war on Starbucks during Christmas time? Like, why are we? don't understand. Like, why are we mad at Starbucks for their holiday cup? I don't get that or

Hey, yes, I agree, and this is me at 18. Yes, I agree that being gay is a sin, but why are we always yelling at the gays? Like, why are we always screaming at gay people? I don't understand that because most of them aren't even in our churches. And again, I wanna be biblical. So, 1 Corinthians 5, Paul tells us to hold the church accountable, not the world accountable. So, I had all these like moments, right? And even theological. Does God really predestine all people for either heaven or hell? Like, am I predestined for heaven and my brother who's not a Christian?

He's just gonna burn forever because God designed it that way? Hmm, I don't really understand that. Or is hell really eternal? Now, the thing about white evangelical culture, especially in the States, and I'm assuming you guys get a lot of this because we export over to you and plus Hillsong and et cetera, is that for every question you have, there's always an answer, right? There's always some theologian or book or piece of information that will give you the answer to your question.

Will Small (13:12.749)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (13:20.122)
So it's not for me that my tradition was afraid of my questions. They were not. They were afraid of me coming to the different, to different conclusions than what they were giving me. Right? So yes, Tim, let's talk about hell. I'd be happy to talk to you about hell. I love good faith questions, but in their back pocket, they already have the answer. Yes, eternal conscious torment. And if you see it differently than that, you're gonna be in trouble. So I had all these moments. And then when Trump came on the scene, I thought to myself, wow.

Will Small (13:28.851)
Mmm, yeah.

Tim Whitaker (13:48.508)
This guy's crazy. He's a bully. Again, I'm moderate. I'm conservative. Like I'm not liberal. No, no, I'm pro life. I'm not pro choice. I'm still in that bubble. I'm thinking to myself like, wow, Trump is kind of a bully. I'm glad he'll go nowhere. You know, like I'm watching the primaries. I like John Kasich a lot. seems, know, whatever. This is like insider baseball stuff. But I'm following the election of 2016. And then I watch Trump win the Republican nominee.

nomination, then I see talk radio hosts who first said that Trump was a charlatan and the con man and hates you started embracing Trump. And I saw pastors start to say, well, maybe Trump isn't that bad. And then the moment happened that changed everything. This is the moment. The leaked Hollywood access tapes, right of audio comes out of Trump bragging about grabbing women by the you know what, I'm like, Whoa, this is so crass. This is so graphic. This is so disgusting. I can't believe that. And I thought to myself, well, this is it.

Will Small (14:26.531)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (14:48.304)
he is toast. Trump is toast as far as white evangelicals go because I'm not that old, but I remember Bill Clinton. I remember Franklin Graham saying, well, hey, Bill Clinton had an affair in the White House. How can we trust him to lead the nation if he can't lead his family? Right? And so I'm thinking to myself, well, guys, if there's one thing evangelicals don't like, it's sex. We are a purity culture group. No, don't touch yourself or anyone else until you're married. That's the rule, right? And so I'm thinking this guy's toast. And for a minute, I thought to myself,

maybe evangelicals will form a different political party that really embodies the values of Jesus because God knows I couldn't vote for a Democrat because you know, well, they're Democrats. They're already handed over to Satan. But the Republican nominee now is obviously too crass for us. So maybe, you know, what do we do? And then the line came out. We need a commander in chief, not a pastor in chief. And my jaw dropped because I'm not sure about you, Will, but

Will Small (15:32.742)
the

Tim Whitaker (15:48.598)
I was taught that God honors people who are sexually pure. I could not serve on the worship team as a volunteer if they caught me and my girlfriend holding hands alone or kissing alone, let alone me bragging about grabbing women, right? I mean, that would have disqualified me from any kind of church volunteer position. And the guy who brags about this, sexually assaulting a woman, that guy is who God has chosen to lead the country.

Will Small (16:05.774)
Mm.

Will Small (16:09.975)
Yeah.

Tim Whitaker (16:16.732)
I could not believe it. The guy on the cover of Playboy magazine suddenly now endorsed by God. Like what is going on? That was the moment where the damn really broke. I had always cracks in the damn, right? Just springing little leaks. A leak here, a leak there, a leak there. That was like just an explosion. I thought no, I am not capitulating my morals, my integrity, my values for this dude. Like something is way wrong.

Will Small (16:28.878)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (16:43.482)
And that was the beginning of me really thinking even bigger beyond my theology, my white evangelicalism. Then of course, Black Lives Matter happened, COVID happened, and that's when TNE started really was in December of 2020.

Will Small (16:57.49)
Yeah, you can see how the dominoes just start rolling there. You know, as you were talking about who you were at 18 and some of those views, you know, I can definitely relate. Like that was in many ways, there was an Australian version of you at 18 over here in my body. I was, and that, that whole thing about, know, like you, can ask the question that we've, we've got the, we've got the FAQ sheet ready to go. And there's one answer for every question.

Tim Whitaker (17:00.326)
Totally.

Will Small (17:24.77)
And it does exist. And then, you you internalize those and you become the person passing that onto somebody else asking the question. That was me. I knew the system very well. What are some of the things that that version of you would look at this version of you now and be just completely blown away by, surprised by, you know, like offended by, what have you become Tim Whitaker? And yeah, paint some of that picture.

Tim Whitaker (17:49.67)
You know, it's probably a mixed bag. I think it's a mixed bag because I've never actually capitulated my own personal integrity. You know, I like to think, in a flawed way, I've been pretty consistent. But the values haven't really changed for me. But the values that I've held eventually led me to change my beliefs.

Will Small (18:13.23)
Mmm.

Tim Whitaker (18:13.474)
So, you know, I think past Tim would be pretty surprised that he's pro-choice, that he believes, you know, that abortion should be legal in America. I think he'd be surprised that he doesn't think that being queer is sinful, example. But I think deep down, especially around like the queer inclusivity issue, I always wanted it to be true. So maybe, you know, my own prejudice has led me to be biased to read the text in the Bible a certain way, right? To find the justification. I don't know. I don't really care anymore, honestly.

because I think that ultimately the ethic of love and inclusion is the way forward for humanity. And I believe it reflects the character of God ultimately. But I think some of those things, and I think honestly he'd be shocked that he became a social media content creator. Because I hate social media, I hated it. I I was never a fan of these like influencer types and you know, I make content for a living. Like I was, I was a to a degree a very blue collar guy. I worked in construction with my family business. worked, you know, I worked in retail for a little bit like,

I was never one of those dudes who just wanted to make content online, but here I am.

Will Small (19:22.747)
So the New Evangelicals, like my understanding is that you started this while you were still on the worship team at a church. Obviously, you got some of this background, you know, the dam has maybe broken a bit. But how did it kind of, how did it start? And then how did you find it? Like, I guess, almost like the snowball, the avalanche into a very large movement that it is today.

Tim Whitaker (19:28.464)
Yeah, that's right. Volunteer.

Tim Whitaker (19:34.652)
Totally.

Tim Whitaker (19:46.044)
Wow, very large movement. That is kind of you to say it does not feel that way sometimes when you're working in your guest bedroom alone. Yeah. you know, I started CNE because I was just so fed up with, with everything that evangelicals were standing for. I couldn't believe that I saw pastors, you know,

Will Small (19:52.93)
Hahaha

Tim Whitaker (20:09.22)
posting videos that were dehumanizing George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery. I couldn't believe that pastors were sharing how COVID was a plandemic. And then I saw this worship leader named Sean Foite doing these like the

Will Small (20:20.724)
Sean fucked. That's how his name is spelled and that's how we shall say it.

Tim Whitaker (20:25.102)
It's your podcast, bro. You say it however you want. But he was honestly the impetus that sparked this idea because I was a worship guy. Listen, I was taking drum lessons from a drummer over at Elevation Worship. We became good friends. We were talking every day during the pandemic. I was eating and breathing worship culture. I was producing stuff at a pretty high level. And so here I am. My wife just gave birth. It's the pandemic. It's 2020.

Will Small (20:27.896)
Hahaha

Tim Whitaker (20:53.724)
It's all very new. We don't we don't have a vaccine yet. We're not sure how this thing spreads. It just made sense to be like, yes, why wouldn't we social distance? Why wouldn't we wear a mask, right? We're just not sure how this stuff works yet. And then I see a song for doing these, you know, faith over fear, let us worship events. And I'm like, this bro does not speak for me as a worship guy, like not at all. I was just so infuriated to watch this dude touring the country.

during a global pandemic that killed so many people, just being like, I'm not wearing a mask, it's tyranny. Like, what are you talking about, Charlie? It is a mask. And hey, you know what, unlike what they predicted, we don't have to wear masks anymore. You know, it wasn't some big push for government control, shocker alert, you know? And so I'm sitting on my front porch in October 2020. I'm seeing this, I'm like, I'm just so frustrated. We need something new. We need a new evangelical movement. We need new evangelicals. That's how the name came into my head.

Will Small (21:37.675)
Mm. Mm.

Tim Whitaker (21:52.273)
I typed up like a what-if like statement of faith if I was dreaming this up whatever this thing is What would we believe in that and it was pretty like moderate maybe a little progressive But it wasn't we're on that now and I sat on it for a while and I thought well Let me grab the names to see if anyone has them is I thought surely someone has to have the new evangelicals I just thought was a really good name. I someone has to have it and no one had it It was available on social media. There was really no website So I just grabbed all the all the stuff just in case and then her friend finally convinced me

in December of 2020 just to start the Instagram account and just see what happens. I was freaking terrified. I mean, I'm a volunteer drummer in New Jersey, the South Jersey part, no connection to the bigger evangelical conversation, no connection to publishers or content creators, no money, you know, no, no, no background in nonprofit management, like no nothing, just literally hit create page, made a video in my attic saying,

Here's where I'm at. Here's what I'm looking to do. Anyone else out there thinking about these things? Turns out there were. And I found myself in the deconstruction explosion and it just kind of snowballed from there very quickly, especially after the insurrection. And you know, from there, just it grew and I thought, well, if we're gonna do this right, let's try and do it as ethically as possible. So we went the nonprofit route and yeah, now we're a nonprofit. We do the podcasts and all this other stuff and it's been quite the journey.

Will Small (23:03.342)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (23:17.126)
But it's been a grind, man. I'm not gonna lie. It's a lot of work. You you're always thinking about this. It lives in your head all day. It's hard to turn it off. You're always thinking about content and like how to make videos and hopefully people will see them and you know, the podcast, it's a lot of work, but I really do truly love it. Like I really do.

Will Small (23:21.006)
Mm.

Will Small (23:32.992)
Hmm. I think it's important work, man. And, you know, think spiritual misfits where we're sort of, TNE adjacent and, and trying to do similar things. And I understand both the, the grind nature of it, but also the, the privilege it is to try and build community for people that, kind of looking, looking for an alternative, looking for something new, which is maybe actually something old, depending on how you look at it. But

I'm interested, right? Like language and the name, the new evangelicals kind of touches on this like debate that I have in my head sometimes I'm sure you have in yours. You know, do we, do we try and, reclaim problematic language and kind of, make it ours again? or do we, we just find new words and, I'm curious about how you feel like the word evangelical, particularly in the States, right. Has so much baggage now at this point in time.

Do you still identify as a as a new evangelical? Do you feel, you know, how do you think about some of those tensions? And does that come up much and in terms of the kind of work that you do?

Tim Whitaker (24:39.034)
I think it did in the beginning. Look, evangelical means someone who brings good news. I don't think evangelicals are bringing good news anymore, and we need to. And the reality is, that if you look at the evangelical tradition in America and only think about it in terms of like the moral majority and stuff, then you're missing out on like a really robust historical background of the evangelical tradition. You early evangelicals, Wesleyan holy tradition,

you know, very much like abolitionists, first people to ordain women, like very feminist, social justice oriented, very pious. So there's definitely precedent, you know, it's a shame that fundamentalism has taken over the label. And it's a shame that it's become what it is. Now, that being said, I'm not one of these like you have to you have to see it my way or else we can't be friends. Like I totally get why people are like, f*#$ this, right? Like, no, thank you. Keep me far away from that label as possible. I'm just a very stubborn person.

Will Small (25:18.766)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (25:35.81)
I do not like giving up ground. I do not like conceding terms that mean a lot to me. I don't like admitting defeat. That's why I'm still on Twitter. I refuse to be bullied off of Twitter. Like I could leave, I could, but I refuse. I absolutely refuse to leave because it's my decision, not theirs. So same thing with this, know, like the new evangelicals, first off, I think that there is something worth reclaiming as far as the name itself. Second of all, there is a robust tradition of other evangelicals. This is Isaac Sharpe's book, The Other Evangelicals.

Will Small (25:38.286)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (26:05.436)
that helps us think about other people in the tradition who have tried to push things forward. And lastly, maybe least importantly, but still feels good. I like rubbing salt in the wound to, you know, fundamentalists like no, guess what? I'm an evangelical and I'm fully inclusive and affirming and I want affordable healthcare and I voted for a Democrat and you can't do anything about it. Cope, you know, like, like you just, what are you going to do? What are you going to do William Wolf or Megan Bisham? Like, what are you going to do?

Will Small (26:19.254)
Mm.

Will Small (26:28.866)
I'm here too. Yeah.

Tim Whitaker (26:34.97)
You cannot stop me or anyone else from using the term evangelical or new evangelical and reinterpreting it as it has been already because the term evangelical does not always mean fundamentalist. There was a huge schism there for a long time. So I'm happy to participate and do my part to reclaim it and say, guess what? What if evangelicals were fully affirming of all their neighbors? What if they cared about the rights and the marginalization of their trans neighbors? What if they cared about resisting authoritarianism for real?

Right? That's what I'm looking to do.

Will Small (27:06.926)
I have a lot of respect for that. It also makes me think about, I don't know if you're familiar with Brian McLaren, he talks about this idea of the cult of innocence. And that when we, you know, the temptation to kind of just leave a label or group or people often comes with this sort of idealized version in our minds that well, now I'll be the, now I'll be part of the pure group. And I think there's something about, you know, for me, I often think about it in terms of

Tim Whitaker (27:12.747)
yeah, he's a friend.

Mm-hmm.

Will Small (27:35.558)
I am Australian, meaning that I have grown up in a place that has a history of violence, occupation, colonialism. And some days I would like to just move on from that and be something else. And yet it's part of my work to actually grapple with, you know, that is part of my lineage and the good and the bad. I have to kind of receive that, work with it, be creative with it.

Tim Whitaker (27:44.186)
Hmm. Hmm.

Tim Whitaker (28:00.688)
Mm-hmm.

Will Small (28:04.494)
So yeah, much respect for the way that you articulated that.

Tim Whitaker (28:08.508)
I just feel like we have to, you know, like, I don't know, I've always been a rebel. nothing's really changed for me. I just have aimed, I just aimed a little bit differently now.

Will Small (28:14.093)
Love it.

Will Small (28:19.69)
So obviously one of the things that's like, you know, changing the world, or has increased through COVID et cetera, is like the place of digital community. And, for, for a lot of people, digital community has meant that they've been able to find people that are thinking similar thoughts and, know, expressing some of these, alternative views when maybe in their neighborhood or in their church, feels like they're completely alone. And so in so many ways, the digital world,

podcasts, you know, it's, it's allowed so many more people to like kind of come to the water and, have a drink. but one of the things I don't know about you, but one of the things that I'm constantly sort of wrestling through trying to think about is the relationship between digital community and flesh and blood community. And how, to me, like the motivation for making a podcast is actually that ultimately I want people to be able to sit across from a person and feel accepted and connected and feel that like rich sense of we are, together.

Tim Whitaker (29:03.004)
Mmm.

Will Small (29:16.99)
and if the content can help to support that, then that is the win. But I don't know. I I just feel like I don't really want to make content for content sake, but I know that TNE is kind of in some ways, I think really on the front foot in terms of helping people to connect in a range of ways, and helping people to find people near them while also being, you know, having all those benefits of digital accessible. Anybody can jump in from anywhere.

How do you think about that relationship? Do you spend much time thinking about this kind of like the two-sided coin of physical community, digital community, pros and cons of both?

Tim Whitaker (29:55.216)
Yeah, I'm actually really passionate about this. I fought with my board of directors over if we call TNE a community. Because for me, I'm like, guys, like for me, community is embodied, it is real. The internet people can make whatever image of themselves that they want. And like, how do you really connect with people behind a keyboard? Now, that being said, I understand our digital moment and that a lot of people find a lot of solace in these spaces that we've created. Our Facebook group, we have a

Will Small (30:04.322)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Whitaker (30:24.294)
community map people can sign up for and see who's in their area. And so I'm speaking a little more altruistic here, you know, but I'm such a fan of embodied, deep, committed community. That's messy. That's not easy. You know, I mean, I use the example often with whoever, with whoever, whoever I'm talking to, you know, well, if you and I were away for, I don't know, a month in, in, you know, camping somewhere,

It's only a matter of time before we're going to find friction, right? It's only a matter of time before something's going to come up after we get comfortable with each other and the newness is kind of worn off, or something's going to happen. And then what do we do from there? And when you're dealing with people, a lot of them who have been legitimately traumatized by church and community, those things that are maybe small bumps for some people become incredible mountains that are unclimbable, right, to others because they're so triggered from their past experience.

And that's all fair. So I think that digital community can kind of offer a good third space for people who are trying to heal and try to find some kind of connection and solidarity. But in a perfect world, I would love, as Shane Claiborne says, the church getting smaller and smaller until it takes over the world, right? The idea of just like little communities all over the place, loving their neighbor, loving God, taking care of those most vulnerable and marginalized, local to them, doing it in community together.

I think that's a lot of work. It's not always easy. And I get why digital is so important. And certainly we have put a lot of time and effort into building out those spaces. But I'm a very much in-person guy. And that's shaped, by the way, by my experience having a really beautiful community of 30, 40 young adults where we were doing life together. And I mean that literally. I mean, one example I'll tell people, one of our friends at the time ended up in the hospital for a week. He had something going on.

Will Small (32:05.87)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (32:12.668)
and we had guys in his room around the clock, Monday through Friday, to the point where, and we were like 18, we were like 20 years old, right? So certainly there's a level of like economic privilege where you have the least amount of responsibility, most amount of free time at this point in your life, but the nurses were like, who are these people? They couldn't believe that we had guys there. The second visiting hours were open to the second that they closed. And we would,

Will Small (32:17.9)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (32:37.724)
play Mario Kart, we were very competitive, know, we did that. He would order food for us and they would say, well, you can't feed your friends. He goes, I'm not, I just want five cheese steaks. I just want five, I'm really hungry, you know. Like, I'm just saying, like, we had this community where we really showed up for each other in very real ways. So, for me, I miss that a lot. And I know what's possible. But I also know how much work goes into that. So, for now, I kind of split the difference and say, I would love to see more in-person communities that are healthy.

Will Small (32:40.621)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Whitaker (33:04.934)
but also I understand the power of digital spaces right now.

Will Small (33:09.707)
What does the physical community piece look like for you personally today? Like what's, are you part of a community that does, you know, some form of Christian practice? Is that still important to you? Or is it more of an organic, just the kind of the relationships in your network? I'm curious.

Tim Whitaker (33:26.288)
Yeah, I don't really have a faith community right now. I do miss it. I'm starting to look again. It's been about, I guess almost four years. It will be close to four. Yeah, it'll be four next April. So about three and a half years. I miss the rhythms a ton. I miss the feeling of connectedness and I'm starting to look again. My partner's not a Christian at all. And she's not antithetical to me going to church, but you we have two kids. I want to balance me going with her being with the kids and vice versa. So.

I'm looking to that. We do have a great friend group that we've known for a long, long time that we're connected because of our Christian identity, but really now we're just friends period. So whether some of us go to church, some of us don't, that doesn't really affect how much we all hang out. That is really helpful. Most of them, I don't think like listen to the work that I do or know much about what I do or if they do, they don't really want to talk about it with me, which is totally fine. So I don't really bring it up. But yeah, man, I'm sure maybe similar for you. I don't know.

It's like, you know, it's a big desire to find embodied community. Again, especially working out of my guest bedroom alone all day. It's just like, I will take anyone in person who wants to meet up for any reason at all. Like, yes, I'll meet you for coffee. And you can tell me about whatever you want, as long as we're embodied.

Will Small (34:27.487)
Mm.

Will Small (34:40.363)
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. mean, this this podcast kind of grew out of my wife, myself and a few of our friends started an alternative church basically. And that was the idea of the misfits was like, let's start a church for anyone who feels like a misfit. And it's small. And we wanted it to be small. That thing you said about Shane Claiborne, like the church becoming so small that it kind of takes over the world type thing. Like that's actually very much, we wanted to grow small rather than to grow big. And so out of that community,

Tim Whitaker (34:53.372)
Mm.

Will Small (35:09.37)
the podcast kind of emerged as our answer to how do we remain like just a small close knit group of people trying to do life together while being aware that so many people wish they could be part of something like this. And yet there aren't necessarily many of these obviously out there. So, for us, it's kind of been in that order, but there's still, I think there's still a lot of, one of the things that I find is that I'm still like fiercely committed to the idea of,

nurturing this local, small, largely invisible flesh and blood community. think that's really, really important, but it can be really hard. And in some ways it's easier to make a podcast, than to actually, to rock up and to, yeah.

Tim Whitaker (35:42.874)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Whitaker (35:49.34)
totally. So much easier. You know why I will? Because when we're done, we hit, all right, see you later. And that's it. Right? Like, like, all I gotta do is be on for the duration of this podcast. I mean, people ask all the time, when are you gonna start a church? Never. Like, I'm never gonna do that. I wouldn't, I don't want to be a pastor. I don't want to deal with the politics and the drama. And I don't know. Like, I'm not, that's not my thing. There are people I know and love who are so good at doing that. I am not that kind of person.

Will Small (36:17.614)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (36:19.12)
Like I'm, it's just, it's not my vibe. It's not the role of TNE, but I appreciate those who do because we need them.

Will Small (36:26.434)
Would you, do you see yourself in some ways? I'm sure that there are people that kind of look to you as a pastor type figure. they, again, they may not like that language at this point in time, but, ultimately they look into you as someone who's a guiding and safe voice. someone who brings them a sense of familiarity, comfort, points them in the direction of, you know, good new ways of thinking. and I'm sure there are times when you have to kind of step into the fray.

Tim Whitaker (36:32.283)
Yeah.

Will Small (36:52.942)
as tensions emerge and personalities clash and we know that sometimes that stuff can happen online in more explosive ways behind a keyboard than it might happen if we were in the room together. Do you think of yourself in some ways as a pastoral, is there an aspect of that in the work that you're doing?

Tim Whitaker (37:12.892)
think about it that way, but people definitely think I am. And I have to remind them, no, I'm not your pastor. I'm not your pastor. I'm not your guru. I'm not even your leader. I like to see myself as a facilitator. I'm trying to facilitate conversation. I'm trying to offer my thoughts. I'm trying to bring more people into the conversation so we can all be learning. I much prefer that. Now, you know, my board of directors, they're like, listen, Tim, you are a leader. You're technically an executive director of the organization. I don't give a shit about that stuff. That doesn't get me up in the morning.

Will Small (37:17.966)
Hmm.

Tim Whitaker (37:41.2)
I don't need fancy titles. I don't want fancy titles. I want to make great content that compels people to think about their faith differently. And I want to facilitate conversations with people I'm curious about with my audience, right? And so yeah, and I think it's, listen, it's very natural, especially when you're leaving evangelicalism, where all you know is who's the white guy with the platform? Okay, they must be inherently trustworthy, right? So, and I know I'm a white guy with a platform, like, yes, I'm aware of that, right? So I try and be so clear often of like,

guys, but I'm not if you're getting all your information from me, or if you have inherent unconditional trust of me, you're doing it wrong. Like do you should not have those things. Period. I don't want your unconditional trust. I have no problem proving why I'm trustworthy, but I'm still not perfect. I'm still a flawed human being, I'm going to make mistakes. And also I'm not your guru. I'm figuring this out in real time with you. I think that that's part of what made TNE so successful is that the beginning was not me saying

Hey guys, I deconstructed, here's the new answers. It was me saying, I have a lot of questions. I'm wondering if you do, you do? Great, let's talk to people that might give us some better answers, because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I think that was kind of the initial charm, you know, is that I wasn't this ex-pastor who deconstructed and now is progressive and trying to start his own new digital community or like trying to monetize off of people's pain. That was never the vibe. I just wanted to figure this out.

and wanted to know if people wanted to join me in the process. three and a half years later, almost four now, the answer is yes, they do.

Will Small (39:18.651)
I think one of the, there's a few things I love about, you know, podcasting in this space. And I'm sure that you experienced this too. mean, compared to just being the white guy on the stage every week, having to pull something brilliant out of your brain, you're actually constantly in the, process of just finding other people that, that you can curate who then, you know, you get, I always think I get the benefit of listening to like,

Tim Whitaker (39:35.612)
Totally.

Will Small (39:41.814)
different person every week basically, open my world up and then other people get to share in that. But it's kind of a selfish thing for me because it's like first and foremost, I get to have these conversations with people that are helping me to think differently.

Tim Whitaker (39:49.966)
Exactly. Exactly, dude. I've had Bart Ehrman on the podcast. I'm like, Bart, Bart Ehrman, like, you know, Pete Enns. I'm like, all these names of people that I look up to. Now I'm talking to them. I'm like, this is I'm fanboying. I'm geeking out, you know, totally.

Will Small (39:58.604)
Yeah.

Will Small (40:04.302)
100 % Yeah, yeah, it's it's amazing. But then in that you you kind of to do a good interview, you have to be curious, you have to have an open heart, you know, if you think you know all the answers, what's the point of talking to somebody else. So I think the combination of those two things, like you're getting exposure to different voices, but you're also forcing yourself to come with questions and to come with a, you know, mode of discovery. I suppose the question I would want to ask you around that is

Tim Whitaker (40:17.008)
What's the point?

Will Small (40:31.23)
know, while totally respecting and loving your answer to, I'm still going to take space in the evangelical world. I'm sure what you've discovered as I've discovered and what has been life-giving to so many people that I've been kind of journeying with in this space is discovering, whoa, Christianity is so much deeper, richer, wider, all these different streams, all these different practices, all these different historical figures. What have been some of the things that you know, were completely absent from your faith growing up that now you almost can't imagine having a faith and spirituality without?

Tim Whitaker (40:45.806)
yes.

Will Small (41:00.674)
Like what are some of the waters that you've discovered that have been good news that have been, you know, life-giving.

Tim Whitaker (41:06.804)
definitely still lot to learn, but the black liberation tradition. I'm like, how did I miss like that God chooses sides with the marginalized over and over again, and scripture, know, like how did I miss this? So I think that that's a huge one. Social justice initiatives, you know, the obligation to bring heaven to earth, not just in the megachurch, you know, save as many souls way, but like in a tangible real way for all of our neighbors. I think those are two elements for me where I'm like, I don't know how I

Will Small (41:33.102)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (41:36.378)
I missed this the entire time. Like, wow. And honestly, maybe I didn't. I just just didn't have the right language to express how I was feeling about it at the time. I think I've always thought about, you know, okay, like, tangibly, what does this mean? Right? Like, like, I've always asked people like, so when we die, like, do we have a body in heaven or hell? Like, where does our soul go? How does how does a cremated body get resurrected again?

Like these are just logistical questions. Do we poop in heaven? how, what is the real reality that I've been taught that exists? What's it actually like? Cause I just have questions. So I've always been that way in my life. I think though reading folks like James Cohen and others have given me language of like, yes. I've always had this intuition that God's like always tends to side with the underdog and cares about how we treat the most marginalized among us.

Will Small (42:08.238)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (42:35.152)
But these people and their experience through the lens of scripture really helped me get language to why this work is so important.

Will Small (42:44.69)
Yeah, huge. The other thing about, you know, kind of doing this work, obviously what we just named is very beautiful and being able to expose ourselves to different voices, have these conversations is incredible. The other thing though that I think is a unique part of this space is that when you are trying to have conversations largely geared towards people who have been wounded, traumatized, indoctrinated at times by church and that they're sort of in a kind of mode of recovery.

there can understandably be a lot of sensitivities and pressure points. And I find that again, you know, sort of thinking about it from a church perspective is maybe slightly different to a podcast. But if you, if you're trying to build a community that's oriented towards something in the future, but so much of the energy is around where we've been in the past, it can be very difficult to think what is the right approach that's so gentle.

for people that aren't ready yet for some of this language or some of these ideas, know, they don't care about questions of heaven and hell, they're just trying to survive. But also there is this sense in which I'm like, well, I want you to be able to access if you want to, if you want to access it, I want you to be able access the most robust, beautiful version of Christianity that exists.

How do you kind of think about some of those, you know, people that just need this gentle space of recovery and belonging and people that are ready for like, give me a new theology, man. Give me some big ideas. yeah.

Tim Whitaker (44:13.389)
Yeah. That's probably why we have so many different spaces. Like our Facebook community is really good for that initial, like I just need a space to process and be heard and not be gaslit when I say that my church really hurt me. And then we have the podcast. That's like, I think 300 episodes deep now of all kinds of theologians and scholars and academics, like giving you the deep cuts of like, yeah, let's talk about a different kind of theology. Right? So I think that's

It's tough because you want to hold space for both. I'm not where I was even three years ago when I started TNE. I've progressed. But I don't want to forget the people that held space for me in those moments that really encouraged me to stay on the path, right? So it's kind of this both and approach. And some of our content really hits for some and it misses for others and vice versa. We kind of walk a fine line in a lot of ways, but I like that.

Will Small (45:07.643)
Yeah, I like that too. And I think that that's one of the things that I think it's kind of becoming comfortable with this. You're building an ecosystem and within that ecosystem, people can engage, you know, with different areas, different possibilities, but it's not like anyone has to, has to be all in for it unless they want to, unless that works for them.

Tim Whitaker (45:24.94)
Exactly. And it's always about giving them their autonomy back. So hey, join or don't. Donate or don't. Sign up for a book club or don't. Like the video or don't. It's up to you. I'm just giving you what we have. I'm giving you the need. I'm giving you the information. I'm giving you the guest. And it's up to you to decide to engage or not.

Will Small (45:44.013)
Mm.

So, so with TNA being like a nonprofit, right? Like there is a sense in which you are, you are trying to bring some social good into the world. You were trying to bring something of, of, you know, real value and social impact. I think probably part of it, you know, is kind of touched on, on the website. It talks about how you're trying to create systemic change. Like you want to actually shift conversation. What, what do you see as a win looking like in that space? Or what would you see as, as the deep why?

for TNE as like a nonprofit kind of charitable organization in the world. What does it look like to actually create systemic change or to create, you know, positive ripple in the world?

Tim Whitaker (46:25.612)
love to see a church that is fully inclusive and affirming. I would love for us to look back on this moment, like how we look back on the days of segregation in America. Like what the hell was the white church thinking with this theology? I would love to see that for queer inclusion. I think that would would be that would be just one of the hugest wins in my opinion. And I don't know if that will happen in my lifetime or not, but it needs to happen.

Will Small (46:45.207)
Mmm.

Tim Whitaker (46:54.268)
And I think that it's possible, you know, but I think that would be just one of the biggest wins in my book of like, we did it. Like we made a space for people who were queer to feel welcome and loved and included, you know, and promoted and you know, all that stuff. And they were no longer being demonized. To me that's one of the most important things I hope that we can do. I don't, this is really wishful thinking, but I would love to see a white evangelical church that rejects Christian nationalism and rejects fundamentalism.

Will Small (47:22.017)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (47:22.992)
That's an uphill battle. That's a lot of work. You need to build new coalitions, new networks, new websites, new everything to really retrain people how to think about these things in a more robust way. But that would be another huge hope as well.

Will Small (47:37.902)
And, and in that, I mean, this is a, it's maybe a bit of a tricky question to answer, but do you feel like things are getting better or worse, or do you observe that things are getting better or worse? Do you, do you have moments that you can name that are like, was progress and a win or moments where you're like, we like, are we doing anything?

Tim Whitaker (47:58.147)
in the evangelical church or broadly.

Will Small (48:01.516)
Maybe both?

Tim Whitaker (48:03.196)
I mean, I'm at the point now where I tell people, leave your white evangelical church. Like, just get out. You know, I don't see, there is nothing unique about those spaces that you can't find somewhere else. You can find Jesus in other church traditions. You can find a good community in other church traditions. know, white evangelicalism is just so defunct at this point for me. It needs to be completely gutted and restarted in so many different ways. You know, as far as culture, it's hard to know. mean, Trump getting elected, I think it's just such a detriment to our

our world. And so at this moment, I want to say things that looks like it looks like they're going to get worse. I'm hoping though, that out of the ashes, a real movement of the people will rise up demanding real change, you know, I mean, you know, it's funny, well, every now and then we'll do like, different q &a is and one time I did one on healthcare, I'll never forget this. And when when when I shared with people, how healthcare works in America, people in Australia and England, they could not believe it.

They couldn't believe that people have to shop for a healthcare plan, that some hospitals are in network, some are out, that if you leave your job, you might lose your healthcare, that you can get a surprise hospital bill at any moment because it wasn't covered, that you have deductibles. They like, they, people were like, wait, that's a, that's a thing for you guys? I'm like, yeah, it is the only thing. And so it's just fascinating when you have those little moments, right? Or even school shootings, right? I mean, many people in the world do not suffer from the epidemic of school shootings that we suffer from.

Will Small (49:02.414)
you

Tim Whitaker (49:32.134)
We have more guns than people in America. And again, when you hear outside voices, they go, that's a thing. It's like, yes. And what if I told you that white conservative evangelicals are the people and are the networks and the coalitions that usually fight against both affordable healthcare for all and common sense gun control. makes sure when you think about it outside of my own context, my mind melts. It melts. literally.

Will Small (49:52.334)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (49:58.912)
melts. And I'm like, how are we here as a Christian? Whatever, you know, it's funny, these Christian nationals are like, we have to make America godly again. What? So forgive all debt, like liberate the oppressed? Like, what are we actually talking about here? You know, like, because if you read James Five, James Five is a is a damning critique of business owners who do not pay their workers a fair wage who are stealing from them. Hmm. I wish we use that as a proof text to critique capitalism, but we don't. So

Will Small (50:12.524)
Mm.

Will Small (50:21.358)
Hmm.

Tim Whitaker (50:27.162)
I think about it like that. I think right now things are gonna get worse before they get better. I hope though that after Trump, after the ashes, we can build something new. Don't know though.

Will Small (50:37.977)
Well, it does make me think, I mean, to sort of come full circle from our commiserating at the beginning around Trump. mean, one way to respond to that is to go, well, the world's fucked and you know, let's just watch the carnage unfold. Another is to let that galvanize a desire to be something alternative and to be, you know, even if I've been thinking a lot lately about how

and again, Brian McLaren has been helpful in this as he always is St. Brian, but you know, to sort of detach my hope from the outcome in the sense that it's like, I am going to live as if what we're doing matters and can make a difference as if character matters, as if integrity matters, as if love is the most important, you know, value that should guide a life. I'm going to live like that. Even if, even if at the end of my lifetime, the world is on fire and it doesn't seem like things have gotten better.

because actually I care more about what, what it kind of says about being the kind of people that live that way in defiance of these large overwhelming realities. so, so in that sense, you know, I guess, as we sort of come to the end of this conversation, and I'm really appreciative, appreciative of your time, but what, what, what does the Trump moment galvanize in you around the work that you do in the conversations you're having? Like, you know, who were you going to be?

Tim Whitaker (51:48.454)
for sure.

Will Small (51:58.555)
in the current reality where there are so many things that you probably want to embody an alternative around.

Tim Whitaker (52:04.333)
I'm just motivated to fight even harder. Like to fight, I'm just so motivated to fight harder than ever before. Like we have such an obligation in my opinion to resist Christian nationalism, you know? And I just feel like if we're not working together, if we're not trying to build new coalitions, et cetera, what are we doing? You know? So yeah, that's how I feel. just motivated like hell. And I think that...

Will Small (52:23.886)
Mm.

Tim Whitaker (52:29.904)
We have to find funding, have to find real ways to really make a big difference, to build new systems and coalitions, because it's dire. I this is like a red alert moment. I am not hopeful over the next four years, especially after covering Christian nationalism for the past three and seeing the people behind a Trump presidency, if Trump gives them power, it is terrifying. So in my head, it's like, welcome to the resistance. We have work to do.

Will Small (52:51.726)
Mm.

Will Small (52:56.012)
Yeah. Well, man, I, I'm glad that people like you are, doing that work and are motivated. And I think I'm with you, you know, one thing I'd think about a fair bit is like, we've got to organize as well as, you know, those, those networks that are the fundamentalists and the Republicans and whoever else, like they're really organized. the church institution as it exists in the world today has a massive amount of organizational infrastructure in place.

Tim Whitaker (53:09.276)
100%.

Tim Whitaker (53:17.243)
Right.

Will Small (53:25.326)
And I think one of the biggest challenges is people coming out of that often understandably resistant to sign up or to show up or to connect. But I'm like, actually, like that's really where it's at is, is we need to organize effectively. need to connect. We need to create new networks. We need to go to boring meetings. We need to do the unsexy work of showing up and advocating for something better. So I am personally encouraged every time I speak to somebody else who's attempting to do that.

Tim Whitaker (53:31.504)
Yup. Yup. Yup.

Will Small (53:54.954)
And it does make me feel like there is actually a largely underground, but actually kind of emerging movement of people who are in that resistance that you speak of.

Tim Whitaker (54:07.356)
100 % my friend, I'm on the same page and no time like the present.

Will Small (54:12.854)
Yeah. Awesome, man. Well, you're not a pastor, but thinking about the spiritual misfits that are listening, reminding them again that you're not a pastor. would be the things that you would want to say to anyone who's feeling the discouragement or the weight of the moment? What would be some words from Tim Wicker?

Tim Whitaker (54:29.722)
Yeah, you're not alone, number one, even though it feels that way. Number two, use this as motivation to get active. Use this as motivation to get involved. I don't care if it's giving to an organization that you believe in. I don't care if it's committing to raising better children. I don't care what it is. Commit to getting involved somehow, some way, some form.

I believe that the policies and the perspectives that we hold are way more popular with average people than what Christian nationalism wants. And so I think we have to make that known. And also I think as Christians, especially white Christians in America, we have such an obligation to be so loud about Christian nationalism and to hold our own accountable. So we have to get the work done.

Will Small (55:16.022)
Awesome. Thanks so much, Tim.

Tim Whitaker (55:18.086)
Thank you.